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Post by dantheshotokankid on Jul 16, 2012 1:09:06 GMT
I was talking to someone the other day, who doesnt do any martial arts and doesnt understand it, and they asked me " So if you follow the Samurai's code of conduct, let me ask you this, if you were a soldier or police officer or whatever and you let someone die or you failed and your partner/ squad died because of you. Would you commit seppuku/harikiri?" and to be honest, i had to think about this. because if i'm at war, and my squad is dead because of me, and the enemy is baring down on me soon, would i take my own life so that they wont torture me for answers? it's a true question of character. Personally i cant really say, unless if it actually happened.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Jul 16, 2012 2:13:42 GMT
there are better ways to go than seppuku if you feel the need to end it, i however dont tthink i could bring myself to do it
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Post by ineffableone on Jul 16, 2012 2:46:42 GMT
Seppuku? Nope I wouldn't. Too painful and slow, if like your situation you set up I would go a much fast route like falling on my sword through the heart. Much faster. But I would not kill myself over a lot of what Samurai felt was worth ritual suicide back in the day. However if I am mortally wounded anyways, or about to be captured by enemy forces sure I might then kill myself.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 16, 2012 3:54:10 GMT
I would have to say no to seppuku for all the reasons mentioned above.Another route maybe,depending one the situation of course.But seppuku,no.A painful and long death.This is part of the reason a samurai was given the "honor" of seppuku.
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Post by chrisperoni on Jul 16, 2012 4:40:30 GMT
the cheesy answer is ... quoting Last Samurai of course "I will die by the sword; my own or my enemy's" "then let it be your enemy's"
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Post by MEversbergII on Jul 16, 2012 12:14:00 GMT
Well, I'm not too good at running so that narrows it down for me as far as capture. As for getting people killed, I'm not sure my mental state would be the same as it is now.
This is probably tangental, but here's something I've been reflecting on lately. Feel free to ask me to make a new thread if you feel this is going to derail the one here.
When I was a high school kid (and for a little while after) I told myself that I was to follow what I painted as the Chivalric way. Even went out and bought a copy of a Knight's Own Book of Chivalry and in all things tried to apply the (abstract) methodology. A large chunk was basically unapplicable, as while in high school I was summoned to serve in exactly 0 armed conflicts (homelife not withstanding) and was ruled by exactly 0 lords. In reality I was an unapproachable, idealistic jerk - obviously I wasn't very good at it - I had no honor, nobody sung my praises. It waned in later years and now I basically have forgotten I was ever "in to" it. Just before the end I tried to apply it to jobs I worked, but it didn't really help.
Anyways, more to the point what I've been reflecting on is: Can these "Warrior Ethos" be followed by Civis? Military guys can easily get away with subscribing to them - they're soldiers - but in retrospect I look like a pretender. The core of either Bushido or Chivalry is the fighting bit - Way of the *Warrior* and all that. No one is going to call me out to fight - I couldn't make the cut for the military in the first place. Maybe in the abstract sense many people are warriors - facing adversity in all its forms - but we'd seemingly pale in comparison to the guys who actually volounteer for armed conflict. Wouldn't Chonindo be a more apt far-east Philosophy for us non-combatants?
M.
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Post by William Swiger on Jul 16, 2012 12:40:02 GMT
Not another suicide thread. :-(
I did 26 years in the Army and did two long deployments to the Middle East. The question of people getting killed under your command is a reality. There are too many factors that you cannot control which might result in deaths. You do the job to the best of your ability and training. You follow orders and sometimes the orders have a price that is paid in blood. People who come home with those memories or injuries deal with it on their own or with help. The human spirit is strong and we can cope and continue on.
As far as being taken as a POW - that depends on who the enemy is. The last few wars had us facing people who had no regard for the rules pertaining to POWs.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jul 16, 2012 12:43:29 GMT
Don't get too caught on the modern interpretation on Bushido, as it was modified and wrongly abused a lot during the Meiji-period and WWII. The original idea of Bushido got somewhat twisted to my belief.
In the old days samurai did not think surrendering or switching sides to be unforgiven deed. If a samurai lost a fight, he fleed to fight another day (not kill himself). Those who have researched the old texts write that samurai who fought until death was a rarity not the norm.
Bushido-code and Chivalric-code etc. are ideals that people strive to live for but in reality very few succeed in living by the codes. Some of the positive aspects can still be applied to modern day society but they are general virtues.
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Post by Neil G. on Jul 16, 2012 13:29:16 GMT
Yeah, you know if I was facing some sort of Taliban/Al-Qaida associated force I'd probably rather go down fighting than surrender. If I was facing down someone who I felt I had a reasonable chance of being treated reasonably fairly (or at least be granted a swift death) then I might be willing to consider the possibility of surrender if things looked completely overwhelming - you know, out of food, surrounded, low on ammo etc. I say this because one of my friends with a morbid streak found a few videos online of some of the beheadings and whatnot and showed me clips - just long enough for me to say "knock it off" (including the infamous Daniel Pearl & Russian Soldier/Chechian partisan videos...)
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Post by William Swiger on Jul 16, 2012 14:40:29 GMT
Yeah - those videos made me think that I would never be taken if I found myself in that situation. Screw that!
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Post by Judosailor on Jul 16, 2012 15:06:30 GMT
I think the moral underpinnings of budo and other warrior codes have some value. Ideals such as honor, integrity, honesty, self discipline and self sacrifice are pretty universal. I can see value in upholding them, especially when it comes to the study of martial arts. However, when it comes to specifics, bushido, chivalry and the like are antiquated, heavily influenced by the politics and culture of their times and, in some cases, actually immoral according to many. An example of this is, of course, suicide, which according to my personal beliefs is immoral and wrong.
So I would say that, in the end, there is value in the SPIRIT of bushido. But it would be inappropriate to actually try and live by the specifics of the code.
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Post by dantheshotokankid on Jul 16, 2012 16:59:35 GMT
well like i said, it all depends on my enemy. if i was fighting the Koreans, who treat their POWs with some decentcy by just throwing them in jails, then i would be captured. But if it was by the al quaada (cant spell today) who burns ppl with iron rods, throws them in holes, hardly feed them, throws rats in their holes, throws their "waste" in the holes, and then try to convert you to Islam if not cutt off your head as an example. you know...that should show my odvious choice. But i would rather be killed by my enemy than taken.
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Jul 16, 2012 17:08:13 GMT
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Talon
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Post by Talon on Jul 16, 2012 17:59:30 GMT
zach those gifs are cracking me up :lol: , love them,as for seppuku i'd rather flog the harley buy a nice economical 5 door and get my hair done like justin bieber as for being taken pow,well considering the type of enemy were facing currently a bullet would be a mercy compared to capture :shock:
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Post by dantheshotokankid on Jul 17, 2012 20:52:39 GMT
that's what i'm saying, it all depends on my enemy that i'm being captured by.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Jul 18, 2012 3:00:26 GMT
I've never seen the point of killing yourself to atone for something. Wouldn't it be better to try and spend at least part of your remaining life to make things better or make amends be more productive. As far as surrender or death, if would depend on why I was fighting. If I felt I had nothing left to lose or I was being forced into a no-win situation, I'd try to enter Valhalla covered in my foe's blood. At that point, I re-define winning as making sure that the other side loses too. If not, live to fight again. Now knowing me, I'd probably spend the rest of life trying to get my own back. Not saying its right, but its my nature.
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Post by Mr.Wallace on Jul 18, 2012 5:01:10 GMT
If I was going to be captured by a terrorist cell, with no hope of aid or escape, I'd personally allow myself to be captured and do my damndest to not be afraid. I can't think of a better way to piss off a terrorist than to keep my spirits up and sing glory glory hallelujah after he's done his worst. It isn't realistic, but frankly I can't see gunning down 5 of them having much of an affect. If you're expected to show weakness and fear, and that's how they get their point across, then that's exactly what I won't do. Just to piss them off.
This isn't because of an idealistic code, this is more a scenario of "if I have to go..." If they wanted me alive for reasons other than attempting to scare other people with gruesome videos or torture, say for some crucial bit of information or for use as a bargaining chip, then I could see seppuku by terrorist as a more appealing option. As long as they lose on more than a logistical level I'd die happy (well, as happy as a man can die any way.) If it would work in the same vindictive way, I suppose a more traditional seppuku can't be that much worse.
My $0.02 any way. It probably comes off as raw bravado, but that's not my intention. I also don't mean to imply that I'm to super hardcore to feel pain, or that I could even pull off a smirk or a laugh underthose extreme circumstances, that's just what my driving focus would be. It would be out of spite, not a sense of honor I haven't earned.
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Post by Kersallus on Jul 18, 2012 12:01:00 GMT
A live person can do much more penance than a dead one, at5 least that's how I feel. Capture is dependent on whether they are good hosts or not. IF the3y torture their prisoners for information or just for the hell of it, I'sd prefer to go down fighting. I'd give them a hell of a goose chase though, especially if I realized that wanted me alive.
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Post by Isshogai on Jul 28, 2012 18:36:59 GMT
I do try to live pretty closely to the concepts of Bushido. I think it's important to point out that this is NOT the wacky made up stuff of Notobe's totally delusional Bushido Soul of Japan, nor the mad ramblings of a bitter, resentful monk as found in the the Hagakure. I follow the way as expressed in the living practised koryu. On the question of seppuku - no I wouldn't kill myself in failing a mission, nor at the death of my comrades? Why? BECAUSE of Bushido. It is your obligation and duty to get the job done - not to kill yourself and waste your life on the first failure - you try again and again and again and you don't stop till you succeed. Further it may interest your friend to note that the historical samurai often did not actually "commit" seppuku - rather the blade was replaced with a symbolic wooden blade or even sometimes just a fan and the kaishaku would cut on the person being executed's movement to reach for that fan etc. Also of note - the act of ritual disembowelment was BANNED in 646 AD, though it did continually unlawfully for some time, particular the act of junshi, with the ban being re-declared in 1683, during the Tokugawa reign. So even for a samurai seppuku often was NOT the right or honourable answer. Today such practices are over romanticised, fictionalised and overly glorified. In the proper context and following true bushio a budo, no, you wouldn't often commit seppuku.
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Post by AceofHats on Jul 28, 2012 21:35:37 GMT
I'm sorry but for a rather serious subject, this post by Lunaman almost had me rolling on the floor with laughter...
(collects himself a bit)
thankfully, I have a very blessed life, and as such, I value that life very much. Studying and (occasionally) incorporating specific aspects of different warrior codes is a natural bi-product of my interests in martial arts/swords/weaponry. However, there is only one situation I could foresee even contemplating this, and that is in the event that I couldn't protect my wife from an attack and she was killed. Even then, I know in my heart she would be disappointed if I didn't continue on. So, no, I can't see myself taking the easy way out because of my grief.
Luckily, I am not a soldier or in law enforcement, but for those that are, that is a burden I am grateful to you for carrying.
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