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Post by Sneakypete on Jul 28, 2012 22:05:01 GMT
All I'll say is this: If Batman had committed seppuku after Bane broke his back, it would have been a VERY different movie.
(Yeah, I know it's spoilers, and I don't care. If you haven't seen the movie yet, then shame on you!)
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George
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Post by George on Jul 29, 2012 8:54:47 GMT
Oh man more misconception about Bushi. Please do some research. You will find Hollywood have it VERY wrong. Samurai were paid more than double what a civilian was paid but in return their life no longer belonged to them but to their lord. They accepted that and when it was time to end their life they did so. Your life belongs to you, even in modern military it belongs to you, your commander cant order you to kill yourself. So its completely different, so in answer to you question if you had let down your squad or whatever you are not a samurai so would not have seen it as failing your lord. You would only be letting down yourself. If you can live with that then it doesn't matter To take your life it would be your choice and only your choice.
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Post by Isshogai on Jul 30, 2012 17:35:40 GMT
I agree with this completely - as per my previous comments - but it's funny you should mention Batman. That's me. As is in Batman is my actual legal name.
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Post by William Swiger on Jul 30, 2012 18:06:06 GMT
Whattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Jul 30, 2012 18:11:05 GMT
I would just do this all semprini day:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 2:18:18 GMT
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Post by Reaver on Jul 31, 2012 4:34:03 GMT
Yeah, if you are cutoff with no chance of escape, then might as well go out trying to carve your way through the enemy's lines. killing yourself just makes the enemy's advance easier.
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Post by Isshogai on Jul 31, 2012 9:04:32 GMT
That is pretty much what I do all day. And that guy in Singapore isn't Batman - he's Suparman, trying to be me.
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Post by Isshogai on Jul 31, 2012 9:11:12 GMT
Very true. In more of the better quotes from the Hagakure:
and
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Post by MEversbergII on Jul 31, 2012 11:49:02 GMT
To die without having achieved one's aims is a dog's death and fanatacism. -Hagakure
Also, there was an important samurai figure during Sengoku Jidai who switched sides at least twice. I want to say it was Hedioshi but I'm not great with that subject.
M.
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Post by Judosailor on Jul 31, 2012 13:31:19 GMT
Did you actually have your legal name changed to Batman? Or did you just have some super, comic-con, geek parents who named you Batman? Also, is it your first or last name, or your only name? And if it's your last name, do you pronounce the "man" in Batman like the "man" in Silverman, or Lieberman?
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Post by zentesukenVII on Jul 31, 2012 16:57:29 GMT
I'd never kill myse;f because I lost a battle or something. Musashi says that in the mind of a warrior, every failure is a type of death, not physical but mental. IF you fail as a warrior, it means your life is being taken by your enemy.
If you kill yourself for whatever reason I consider that losing. If I could pick how I died, I'd pick to go out fighting to my last breath for something greater than myself. Thats not suicide, thats honor. (We all remember Boramir.)
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Post by Rifleman Lizard on Jul 31, 2012 18:24:01 GMT
None of us can say we follow Bushido and sincerely mean it. You can study it and take wisdom from the principles... but Bushido is openly linked to outdated social norms, not to mention religion (in this case Shinto Buddhism).
Bushido as it is understood in modern times is as a collective of 10 virtues, not unlike the codes and creeds taught to the modern military.
Further back, Bushido was much more complex and was an exhausting, spiritual and enduring study. It goes without saying that the warrior's creed was bastardised and altered to suit the status quo.
As for suicide in battle... In battle, base instincts take over and self preservation becomes a natural priority. As human beings we find it very difficult to over come these things. Take your pick: Fight or die. Why'd you think men are so willing to kill people they don't even know? Anyone who has seen combat will tell you how scared they were to take life and put themselves on the butcher's block. Even if the enemy are baring down on you, ready to take you to straight to a living hell, you'd still struggle to end your own life. Why? "I'm still alive, I may survive this"... Illogical but very natural. Those of you who side with the idea of taking your own life and saving face in battle, or allowing yourself to be taken? Laughable, and you're showing your ignorance.
If that's true, how could the samurai lay down their lives so readily? They didn't. They were men just like you and I. They valued their own lives. However, it was the social norm and the standards expected of a samurai to be capable of seppuku. It was a very real thing and because samurai were taught this from a young age and that they knew the huge consequences for failing to do what was expected of them; many did so willingly. Most did it under duress.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Aug 1, 2012 5:54:02 GMT
I have a code of behavior and honor if you will that I follow that is internal to me and me alone. I try to live my life in accordance with that but I don't always manage to. I would have a hard time believing anyone that said they always lived up to their code of honor; we're human even the best of us falls short of the ideal far too often. I cannot say what is right or honorable for anyone else to do. Just taking responsibility for my own actions is burden enough for me.
I think that when you get down to the bottom of any code of honor or set of beliefs, they are internal to that person and their conscience. How else could we have people that follow the same code if you will but still act differently.
At the end of the day, I have to be able to look at myself and be at peace with the choices I have made and why I made them. To me honor is internal, praise and approval for actions is external. It is far too easy to mix them up.
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Post by MEversbergII on Aug 2, 2012 12:14:55 GMT
I also have a code of behavior. It's called the law. It's external and applies to everyone around me, with few exceptions.
M.
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Post by wolf_shade on Aug 2, 2012 12:49:41 GMT
Within the context of 14thforsaken's concept, your position of being law abiding is your internal code of behavior. Yes, the law applies to everyone, but the enforcement of the law only applies if you get caught. To some that is sufficient leeway to ignore the law, thus a different code of behavior.
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Post by Isshogai on Aug 6, 2012 10:27:13 GMT
Yep, legally changed my name to Batman via Deed Poll. And it's my first name. I kept my family name as it's impossible to by anything on-line without a surname. And I pronounce it pretty much like the guys in the previous video It is pretty cool being able to pay for things with a credit card that reads Mr. Batman.
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Post by Isshogai on Aug 6, 2012 10:43:14 GMT
Hey RiflemanLizard, I'd be interested in getting a deeper look at what you're saying here. As I, and I'm sure several more Budoka on here, are quite sincere in our beliefs. Who is to say those here don't follow Shinto/ Shingon or Mikkyo Buddhism and just because a social norm is out dated it doesn't mean it's inapplicable? Questioning the sincerity of someone's beliefs is I think a little unfair. That's not to say questioning it is unjustified.
There's a lot of misconception and warped belief as regards Bushido. I'd also like to point out I by no means consider myself an authority on the subject, but an earnest student. As I've mentioned in my previous post on the matter many of the conceptions of "Bushido" stem from modern English language literature or over romanticised accounts. I for one wouldn't agree with many of the precepts expressed in those texts or in things like the Hagakure as they aren't historically accurate. What I do, sincerely, is try to live by a code of conduct, one that is inherently expressed and developed through the practice of the koryu arts.
I completely agree with you when you say that much of it has been bastardised and was used to re-enforce the status quo, and I also agree that is a complex and exhausting study, but a study that can and is undertaken by many.
Given this I'd be very interested to hear what those 10 virtues you ascribe to Bushido are?
Many thanks,
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 12:16:21 GMT
Virtues of Bushido - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido#Se ... shid.C5. Now, the "Code of Bullshido" is one of my pet hates of Japanese mythmaking, I wish people would do research the history and stop believing this nonsense. Here's my bit about the topic from a previous post on another thread from a few months ago: With Bushido, it wasn't written in hard times, to quote one commentator - "One of the most-quoted lines of the Hagakure is "The way of the samurai is found in death." This is all well and good in a period of peace. There's not too much fear of death." The whole concept of Bushido is soundly discredited by historians - you might want to read the article "Bushidó or Bull? A Medieval Historian’s Perspective on the Imperial Army and the Japanese Warrior Tradition" by Karl F. Friday ( ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_friday_0301.htm). To give you Dr. Fridays's bio: Dr. Karl Friday is professor of history at the University of Georgia and is the author of Hired Swords: The Rise of Private Warrior Power in Early Japan (1992), Legacies of the Sword: The Kashima-Shinryu and Samurai Martial Culture (1997), and Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan (2003). He has spent a number of years living, training, and doing research in Japan; he presently holds the menkyo kaiden license and is a certified shihan in Kashima-Shinryu. From the abstract describing his book "Samurai, warfare and the state in early medieval Japan" - Karl Friday, an internationally recognised authority on Japanese warriors, provides the first comprehensive study of the topic to be published in English. This work incorporates nearly twenty years of on-going research and draws on both new readings of primary sources and the most recent secondary scholarship. It overturns many of the stereotypes that have dominated views of the period. Friday analyzes Heian -, Kamakura- and Nambokucho-period warfare from five thematic angles. He examines the principles that justified armed conflict, the mechanisms used to raise and deploy armed forces, the weapons available to early medieval warriors, the means by which they obtained them, and the techniques and customs of battle. A thorough, accessible and informative review, this study highlights the complex casual relationships among the structures and sources of early medieval political power, technology, and the conduct of war. This guy knows his subject matter: For those who can't be bothered to read the above referenced article, here is a summary of it from another website ( www.dctkd.org/bibliography/readI ... ?pubID=307): "Friday argues that the true historical behavior of the samurai has been confused with the more modern concepts of the "Way of the Warrior." He contends that characteristics like "an aim to die" and the absolute fealty to one's lord are more the constructs of a later class of samurai in the 17th and 18th century. These later samurai were "bureaucrats and administrators, not fighting men; the motivation held in common...was a search for the proper role of a warrior class in a world without war." There is little evidence that medieval samurai followed a code as strict as the one developed in these later centuries. In addressing the more likely reasons behind the atrocities committed by the Imperial Army, especially against civilians and prisoners of war, Friday argues for a more practical view. He claims there are no historical precedents in the history of the samurai for such actions. Friday concludes by saying that a better explanation of the behavior of the Imperial Army can be found in the "specific circumstances of the war, the political atmosphere...of the 1930's, and the process through which Japan emerged as a modern nation." When reading this article, I was pleasantly surprised by the content within. Friday makes compelling argument against the linkage of the samurai and the atrocities of the Imperial Army. His thinking is quite clear and logical. Also admirable of Friday is his ability to discuss such a volatile topic without passing judgment. He does not make any excuses, but he does not condemn, either. He merely points out the inconsistency of earlier perspectives. I would recommend this article to anyone, especially those interested in military history. Either way it is an extremely readable essay" As Dr Friday states, "There is little evidence that medieval samurai followed a code as strict as the one developed in these later centuries." Of what little the samurai did follow, when it suited them, was blind unwavering obedience to a warlord who only cared for his own power, but it was under the coercion that any obedience was given. If a samurai 'dishonoured' himself, whatever that means, basically not doing something favourable to a warlord, not an ethical principle, the samurai would be killed and stripped of rank, so the family of the samurai would fall from a position of aristocracy, or at least, great favour from the warlord, to a life of poverty andhard work as peasants for every generation from that point on. And here's another part of a pervous post in a different thread: Also, might help to point out that Hagakure ("Book of Leaves") was written after the Samurai warriors no longer existed, only bureaucrats bearing the title and carrying swords, who never saw battle. Hagakure talks a lot about Bushido, the code of the Warrior, which was all fabricated during Edo peacetime after the wars finished and was never practiced by the real samurai warriors. If you read it as Edo peacetime philosophy and ignore the fictional myth of the honourable samurai living by the code of Bushido, it tells you more about what was going through post-wartime Japan's mind when the samurai class were losing their relevance, but how the Japanese nation was looking for a sense of identity as their society was reforming and transforming under powerful political influences. From wiki article: "The Hagakure was written approximately one hundred years after the start of the Tokugawa era, a time of relative peace. With no major campaigns to fight, the samurai were transforming from a warrior to an administrative class. His work represents one approach to the problem of maintaining military preparedness and a proper military mindset in a time when neither has much practical application." Quite amusing really! Hopefully this clarifies any misconceptions.
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Post by Hackenslash on Aug 8, 2012 19:17:14 GMT
Another thing to understand is that much of the modern notion of "Bushido" is in fact derived from a book written by a Japanese-Christian expatriot living in the United States by the name Inazo Nitobe. He wanted to give the samurai a code of honour similar to his notions of Christian Chivalry, so He wrote a highly romanticised history of the Samurai and developed a concept he called Bushido (a word that was so obscure he thought he invented it). The book was a wild success in Japan, and the Japanese government used it to promote Japanese nationalism and militarism.
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