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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 15, 2012 1:32:12 GMT
Here is a comparison of the Courtrai with some belly modification (and lots of scars from heavy use) and the modified Thorpe tip. I'm with Odingaard. I would take the Thorpe over the Courtrai in a fight any day. In a hallway...maybe the Courtrai. But in open field, Thorpe all the way.
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 15, 2012 4:57:37 GMT
Fair enough. But what if you had to chop down some zombies? :lol: Which is the more apocalyptic falchion?
This is exciting news. I'll be keeping an eye out for that
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Feb 15, 2012 11:53:31 GMT
That right there is a big strike AGAINST the Thorpe. :roll:
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Post by chuckinohio on Feb 15, 2012 14:17:39 GMT
It has become apparent that I am too easy on my Thorpe by far. I have stubbed the tip in a 4X4 several times, but always with the cutting edge, never a determined thrust.
I have the ability and know how to repair any damage that I may inflict upon it, but never really thought of it as "if it bends or something, no big deal". I shall henceforth adopt the Odingaard philosophy of "is it a weak point or not, lets find out". Along those same lines, a Mike style tip rework may be just the thing if I ever do tweak it about. Looking more like a win win the longer we talk about it.
I'm actually following along with you Zach, I like a brute chopper of a Falchion myself. I have always regarded them as a sidearm to transition to, and in that vein, a 'get it over quick' type of tool. The Thorpe still delivers a mean cut when swung with authority, but it's big selling point is its nimbleness. In the off chance that a determined blow will not carry through an enemies defense, with the Thorpe, you have the distinct advantage of being able to maneuver or fence for an opening into a vital area, versus hoping that you can straight out beat your way through their defense. Lacking some of the weight of the Courtrai, one would think that the Thorpe would transmit less energy on a cut that does not shear cleanly through, but the lighter weight Thorpe will get up to speed faster than a heavier Falchion, therefore negating the weight trade off. Less weight accelerated faster= more energy on target if you follow. Being able to get off quick(save it you miscreants, this is sword talk) is a distinct advantage in arms length encounters. Would one rather be hit by a softball going 10 MPH, or a baseball going 40 MPH?
Something to consider for an in close weapon.
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Post by Odingaard on Feb 15, 2012 21:24:45 GMT
Well, I was able to do a little bit more cutting today. I compared my DSA Messer which has a tip, weight, and blade length much like the Courtrai, along with my Thorpe. There is one situation which would make me choose the Messer over the Thorpe. That would be if I knew I would need to cleave through maille or light plate armor. The Messer hits more like an axe, and I am pretty confident if it did not shear maille, it would break anything beneath it. In testing the two side by side against 1/4" plywood, in the cut against the grain, the Messer gets more bite naturally. It's much heavier. But not that much more. I was able to cut about 3.5" into the plywood with the Messer @ the CoP versus about 2.75" with the Thorpe @ the CoP. Thrust? The Thorpe dominates to the point of laughability. In the 1/4" plywood, the Thorpe gets penetration nearly to the blade flare. The Messer gets about 1" with the same amount of force. The Messer did penetrate the bottom of a steel bucket with the tip a tad (making more of a dent than a puncture), but then again, the Thrope thrusts home like a hot knife into butter, getting 2" of penetration. I still have not suffered any tip damage, though I was sure the bucket would have done it. Recovery with the Messer is sluggish do the the weight versus the length. With the Thorpe, which is lighter and longer, the momentum of the blade makes it way more graceful. The Messer feels more like a tool, whereas the Thorpe feels more like a sword. In a CQB sitting, if I could not have a good gladius, I'd take the Thrope. Though the Messer is shorter, the Thorpe is more oriented toward the thrust - and it does not take much energy to penetrate clothing or flesh - that acute tip is volatile. Very little pressure is required to get adequete penetration on a soft target. As Fiore said (I paraphrase this), 'cutting blows are of disconcerting use only, they take longer to kill people. The thrust is what kills people fastest' - I have seen the logic of this in fighting within the Fiore longsword system. Quite frequently you bind up with your opponent and you can only work with the tip of your blade because you cannot get enough power behind a cut that close in. There are numerous times when I was able to angle my blade just enough to get the point under my opponent's aventail or into a gap and pull them down onto it - but a cut would have been futile. I am not saying the Thorpe is the perfect weapon. For CQB, it's a bit too long. But, in the testing of a shorter, heavier, cutting weapon versus the longer, lighter, more-acute weapon - I'd have to pick the Thorpe. Much of the same could be said for someone with a Type X fighting someone with a rapier. I'd put my money on the guy with a rapier - he can angle that point from many different angles and thrust from any of them, with the benefit of having a longer blade. He's not going to split a shield with his rapier, but he can most certinaly kill the fellow with the Type X easily enough. I am not saying the Type X guy would lose, I am just saying the odds would be greater that he would get stuck with a fatal blow before the rapier guy did. To each their own. I cut bottles, plywood, and tatami in my backyard - I've no need for a sword for the purpose of defense or offense. I have numerous firearms which excel at those types of job and enough ammo to last until World War VIII. The Thorpe is a great cutter and an excellent thruster. For someone wanting those attributes in a falchion, the won't find anything else on the market which fits the bill in it's price range. It's a fun little blade which can give hours of backyard pleasure.
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 15, 2012 22:02:46 GMT
Oh believe me, I'm well aware of the importance of getting a weapon up to speed, just take a gander at my posts in the "Sword Cutting Power" thread. :lol: I want to make it very clear that I am not in any way dismissing the Thorpe as an effective weapon. That would be silly. It's an absolutely fantastic sword, oozing cutting performance and speed and sharp and pointy and all sworts of good things. It's damn cool, and I'd even be willing to wager it would be more useful in sword fight (as Sarge just excellently explained while I was typing this.) It's 100% badass, and I do like it. I'm just saying it's not quite my cup of tea. That preference has no bearing on its quality. The main point being that it's just too long for me. As I was saying to Tom when I almost purchased the first Thorpe (which is now Mike's) the historical falchions that I really dig are the short blades with stout profiles, and the Thorpe doesn't quite push the same buttons, glorious though it is. I like to imagine the archer's side-arm, a short blade that doesn't get in the way while using a ranged weapon, but as a back-up weapon packs a huge punch for its size, the zombie weapon for maneuvering around hallways and cutting down foes where they stand when gunshots would be too loud. There's no point in using the point on a zombie . I mean, I'm never going to cut up zombies with my sword, but neither am I going to have to fight another man in armor with a sword, either. So my preferences aren't geared towards achieving that particular goal. I mean, just look at how big this thing is: Now look at the size of the courtrai: If what I, PERSONALLY, want is a short side-arm with a lot of power, then the choice is simple. I got nothing against longer blades, I just like my arming swords with two edges. *shrug* --I also agree with Sarge that a gladius would still be a better blade for CQB. But I dig the attitude of the short falchion.
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 16, 2012 0:10:15 GMT
In all honesty...right this minute, it would be the Courtrai, but only because I have a nice scabbard for it and I don't have a scabbard for the Thorpe (swords spend a lot more time in a scabbard than being used, in that environment...I would suppose). But the new upcoming 28" version of the AT Thorpe falchion, once I get a scabbard for it, will be my mostest go-toest sword for that kinda thang. Just 'cause I like "CQB swords" with sub-30" blades. I really can't overstate how much I like this whole Thorpe design.
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 16, 2012 1:34:45 GMT
Like I said, make it messer-sized and I'm game. 28's close enough. :lol:
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Post by chuckinohio on Feb 16, 2012 2:21:26 GMT
I understand fully Zach, I was just throwin info bits out into the ether mate.. :lol:
And to think, I was leary of plywood. :oops:
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Post by Ceebs on Feb 16, 2012 9:03:53 GMT
Cheers for a damn fine review Odingaard. Well I have to say that after ordering my Thorpe I was a tad concerned with the tip. Not anymore And that sharpened false edge is just awesome. From a German system perspective I think that's the bees knees, awesomesauce, and cool bananas rolled into one. It seems like this sword would be fine by itself in a fight as well as being accompanied by a buckler. Something I intend to test out once I get mine. Ahhh the perfect sidearm for an archer...
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Feb 16, 2012 20:29:00 GMT
I would like to point out that the 28" thorpe is currently available. all you need to do is give us an email when you buy a thorpe saying you want the short version. I'll see about getting a menu option for the shorter blade on the web site. Consider that the antique Thorpe weight less than 2 pounds. I don't recall exactly what the Conyers Falchion weighs but it is pretty light too if memory serves. as far as I am aware pretty much every surviving antique falchion we have today is pretty light. aesthetics are all fine and good, in fact they are quite important but no one is going to convince me the Courtrai is the better falchion, but then again, I really like the style and aesthetic of the Thorpe. in fact I like the look of the original Thorpe better than the current one but the current one is my favorite because it works better and I'm all about that. Those of you who like another one better are welcome to enjoy them and I'll not say you're wrong to like them better; but I might call you a weirdo once in a while. kidding of course
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 16, 2012 20:53:58 GMT
Pah! What do you mean by "pretty light"? All SWORDS are pretty light, and it's not as if the Courtrai is heavy or unwieldy by any stretch of the imagination. I meant that not all falchions are long and thin like the Thorpe, and I've seen that evidence with my own eyes. These are all later period than the Thorpe, but you get the idea. Nobody said it was. The courtrai has a better blade length for my preferences and a sempriniin' hilt, so I have every right to prefer it. :lol: And I reserve the right to call you the same. :lol: That IS good news. Still will hold out for info re: a messer hilt, though.
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Post by Odingaard on Feb 17, 2012 0:41:26 GMT
If Luna is comfortable with his being several inches shorter than mine, that's ok. Length jealously is a problem I frequently deal with. :lol: On the Medici Falchion Luna photoed above, if my memory serves me correctly, the original weighs close to 4 lbs. At least for me, that is restrictively heavy for a 23" blade. Russ Ellis talks about the A&A Medici in his review: "The Arms and Armor Medici falchion is a chopper plain and simple. It feels much like one would imagine an ax with a cross guard would feel. The spine of the piece is nearly half an inch thick and then quickly tapers to a razor cutting edge. As you can imagine when you put all that mass behind such a sharp edge the results are particulary devastating. However this is not a quick sword, it is much slower in recovery then one would expect for such a short sword and once you have committed to a swing you have little choice but to follow through. In the performance department this sword could easily be characterized as "nasty, brutish, and short." "The brutish performance characteristics of this sword are in stark contrast to its elegant aesthetic. In many ways this sword could be considered an elegant ax with a cross guard." As for me, I would gladly take speed over that restrictive of a weight/mass. Melee combat goes down way too quickly for a slower blade. If given the choice between something like the Medici and a tanto, I'd take the shorter tanto any day of the week. Of course, this is my personal opinion. If people like these attributes in their swords, I am not one to argue. A messer form of the Thorpe would be very interesting. It would be light as hell and a thruster like no other. But, their should be a little more weight toward the tip so that the blade's energy can remain at a similar level. It would definately take some experimentation on Angus' part to depart further from the original design. All examples cited here are decidedly different blades from different periods used for different purposes. And each survives historically, telling us that people in antiquity had their different preferences as well. But, let's not forget that this review was about the current production Thorpe, and not about other blades which are not currently available or which may never be available unless they are custom orders or significantly modified. In these cases, I suggest you order what you ultimately want if the Thorpe does not appeal to you, and do your own factual review on your preferred type of falchion.
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron on Feb 17, 2012 0:55:54 GMT
[ ] Told [ ] Not Told [X] Knights of the Told Republic
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 17, 2012 2:00:01 GMT
At least I know I'm not compensating for anything. Guys, seriously, stop with the rebuttals. I've said multiple times the sword is awesome. I just don't personally dig the shape and size. I'm not attacking your precious blade; almost every post I've made has included praise for it. I have every semprini right to not fall in love with every sword Gus makes. Doesn't matter how glowing the review is. Nobody here is going to fight another person with their sword, so please stop trying to use that as a reason to say the courtrai isn't worth anyone's time and that the Thorpe is the only falchion anyone should ever consider OMGLOLZ. Knock it the f**k off. This review IS indeed about the current long model, and the issues I have are WITH the long model. Discussion should be able to withstand comparisons to other swords, and the poster of the review does not own the comment section that follows it. Your review is fantastic Odingaard. Doesn't mean I have to like the sword.
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron on Feb 17, 2012 2:19:02 GMT
Hmm, I didn't think anyone was attacking your dislike of the sword, Zach. Not to tell you what to do, but it might be in your best interest to cool off a bit. Just as one friendly sword enthusiast to another. You DID ask for comparisons between the two swords and comparisons were given. Mike, who owns both and who you specifically asked, stated that he felt the Thorpe would serve him better in a fight if his life was really on the line. Most everyone else who has experience with the sword(s) agreed. Aside from a couple of pot shots (which to me read like they were in jest, especially Jonathan's "size" comment), I don't think anyone was saying you didn't have the right to love the Courtrai more than the Thorpe. Hell, I've disagreed and bantered back and forth with Sean and a few others on numerous occasions about what we like in an arming sword. I like something with more authority, Sean likes something a bit more neutral. Same with our differing geeky tendencies. I've thrown out more than my share of comments on how D&D is the epitome of geekdom and Sean should be ashamed of himself. But I collect action figures and have all kind of Harry Potter memorabilia (which I know you can relate to ), so I have no room to talk when it comes to dorkiness. The pot shots are meant in jest and are taken in stride. There's no reason people can't disagree without anyone feeling ousted, even if that disagreement has a few jabs tucked in there. :lol: If we're being honest, there's nothing really about falchions that tickles my fancy. I think it'd make a great bush blade and in I had to have one, I'd use the Courtrai over the Thorpe. So you aren't alone in that preference.
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 17, 2012 2:31:12 GMT
Yea, I did, and Mike and I had a good and helpful exchange. It's Tom's and Jonathan's most recent posts that are pissing me off. I never said the courtrai was "better" and if Jonathan can't deal with people asking about comparisons to other swords on his reviews, that's ridiculous. He doesn't need to resort to such a childish post when other people have different preferences than his own (I say that being well aware of how childish my OWN previous post was).
Awesome.
Probably right. Doesn't invalidate my getting frustrated by the way the discussion has gone on this last page.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Feb 17, 2012 2:42:59 GMT
HAHA! ok Zach, and Jon you guys got me. I forgot about the Medici, I should have known that I couldn't get away with such a broad statement anyway.
Zach I'm sorry man, I have always had quite a lot of respect for you, and I do not mean to say there's anything wrong with you liking the sword you have. it is gorgeous after all, just not to my tastes. I only meant to rib you a bit and not upset you.
as always good sir you are welcome to call me a weirdo any time you like. I've never taken it as anything but a compliment anyway. at least not when coming from men of character such as yourself.
yes, I am determined that the short Thorpe design will one day be the basis of a messer. I don't know when it will happen but I am determined to see it. around that time I expect people will start to see complex hilts from us too. I mean if I can hang with mounting a nagel, I can do side rings too, the skills are pretty similar, and yes, I'm working towards that also. just don't go and hold your breath waiting for it, I wouldn't want any of you lovely people turning an irreparable shade of blue.
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Post by Odingaard on Feb 17, 2012 2:57:24 GMT
I think there is a BIG MISUNDERSTANDING here. I have not been defensive of my review, nor my sword in my posts. This particular weapon is merely another tool in my toolbox, not an item which I have developed a personal or intimate attachment to. I have been merely going with the flow of the conversation in comparison between the two and the dynamics of each. That's what happens when people talk about the pros and cons of different things.
Zach, if my posts have in some way pissed you off, I apologize. Clearly there has been some miscommunication on a level which was unintended. If you feel my posts have been 'childish', well, I don't know what to say to that - unless you are soley referring to the joke I made at the header of my last post. The only answer I have is that was not how it was intended.
As for me, I will bow out of further discussion in this thread. I do not seek an argument or confrontation where there is none in my eyes.
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 17, 2012 3:49:25 GMT
No, guys, it's fine. I'm sorry. I'm just really not in a good space today and I was letting outside stuff blow this way out of proportion. I apologize. I was the one out of line, not either of you. Tom, Jonathan, you know I have immense respect for you gentleman. Your ribbing was clearly friendly, I'm just being defensive today and wasn't in a mood to accept it as such.
Tom, I may have called you out on the falchion weight thing, but that doesn't mean anything you said was bothersome or un-called for. I'm really glad you contributed so much to the convo not just as an enthusiast but also as a vendor.
Jonathan, the joke and the part of your post below were the bits I was bothered by, but clearly I took it the wrong way compared to what was meant. It might have been a bit snarky, but the only childish thing here was my temper tantrum earlier. :lol:
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