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Post by ineffableone on Jan 21, 2012 5:25:14 GMT
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Post by Neovenetar on Jan 21, 2012 12:00:47 GMT
Wow, that's pretty well thought out! Actually seems quite practical....
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normanno
Member
the warriors don't show their heart until the axe reveals it.
Posts: 147
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Post by normanno on Jan 21, 2012 12:26:21 GMT
Good idea! I'll do the same in the handle of my sword!!
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 21, 2012 19:35:06 GMT
LOL, a hollow handled sword, I think I will make sure to stay well away from you when you swing that. :lol:
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Post by MrAcheson on Jan 22, 2012 2:36:46 GMT
I'm going to dissent for two reasons. One, while I love my Mossberg putting a pistol grips on one is a bad idea. Pistol grips prevent you from using the tang safety without moving your shooting hand. Better to get a hollow standard stock. Two, shotguns are good survival weapons, but bad anti-zombie weapons. You need an accurate shot to the head. Accuracy is not where shotguns excel, especially at any significant range. Flexibility is where they excel with buckshot, birdshot, and slugs.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 22, 2012 3:23:31 GMT
Wait... People still believe this tripe? I don't even shoot guns and I know that's a load of BS. Case in point:
And at even further:
Hickok hit that pressboard 15 times at 230 yards with a shotgun using 1oz slugs. And he did it with iron sights. Still don't believe shotguns are accurate at any significant range? Hell, when dealing with zombies, if they're even more than 50 yards away, you don't need to worry about them, because they are slow, shambling, and clumsy. Also, why bother killing them when you can disable them? Your goal is to survive, not have the highest body count. Oh, sure, kill them when you have to, but otherwise, just blow an arm or a leg off so they fall then get the hell away from them. Or just shoot 'em in the shoulder so they topple, 'cause I guarantee you, if getting shot in the shoulder will knock a living person on their ass, it'll definitely knock down a zombie with no sense of equilibrium.
That said, I do agree about putting pistol grips on Mossbergs. I love the position of the tang safety as it's 100% ambidextrous, but anything other than a regular stock makes it harder to actuate.
@ineff: Regarding the hollow grip, why not just do something like the Cold Steel Bushman, or even a plain old spear style socket with a threaded pommel? No chance of it going flying then.
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Post by GUEST on Jan 22, 2012 10:15:22 GMT
Vicent a shoulder hit with a shotgun will not knock a person down, if it would it would knock you down too,Ever hear of Newtons law. Inless it almost contact distrance you are not going to blow an arm or leg off you will just hit with a few pellets, buckshot spreads out. Why would anyone want to carry a heavy shotgun, with it's heavy bulky ammo, with you can carry a light hi cap rifle or carbine. Like it or not shotguns are speciallized weapons if they were so great arms would eqiup with them instead of rifles.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 14:35:55 GMT
If you held a shotgun a foot away from your shoulder and fired it, you might take your shoulder out! It's a lot more complicated than Newton's law, because bracing the gun against the shoulder reduces the impact, even though the kinetic energy stays the same. The weight of the gun and its rearward motion soaks aup a bit of the energy to, as does the energy absorbing recoil pad on the buttstock. Buckshot or any shotgun pellets only spread out over long distances. at 5 to 7 yards, all the pellets will be grouped in an area about the size of your hand, and at 15 yards they would cover a dinner plate. The Winchester Model 1897 pump action shotgun was used effectively in WWI by US troops against the Germans, the German casualties were so high that Germany protested about their use and wanted them banned. See wiki article below, interesting reading: (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1897)
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Post by demonskull on Jan 22, 2012 15:43:47 GMT
This type of physics question comes up often regarding recoil vs momentum. Recoils are braced against as the shooter expects it. Unless you're a novice who just picked up a gun and fired it, knowing nothing, you will not topple. If however you're on the receiving end of getting shot, not only will you have the unexpected kinetic energy, there is shock, pain and you will not be balanced to accept the energy if you don't know it's coming. If you do know someone is going to shoot you, I'd suggest instead of braceing for the kinetic energy, that you develope some energy of your own and run like hell ! Just a suggestion
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 22, 2012 16:56:57 GMT
I don't mean to contradict you, Fallen, since I know for a fact that you have a lot more experience than I do, but I make the study of body mechanics my hobby. The center of balance in a person is between their groin and navel. If you hit them with enough force to disrupt their balance high enough above that center, they will topple all by themselves; it's simple physics.
Buckshot does spread out, but unless you're aiming at something 100 yards or more away, it won't spread out significantly. Buckshot from 5-7 yards generally has a spread pattern of about 3"; the average width of an adult male forearm is about 3-4". Just like how you can cut off a head with a blade longer than the neck is wide in a single shot, something moving as fast and with as much kinetic energy as buckshot with the same width as its target will destroy it.
Anyways, the thing is: we're talking about zombies, a mass of rotting flesh with no sense of balance themselves. They have absolutely no way to right themselves, so they could be knocked over if you elbowed them in the face with any amount of force. If you can do that with an elbow, a gunshot most certainly could. And since their flesh is rotting, it's also ready to fall off at the slightest provocation. Again, a decently sized gunshot will certainly provide that.
Shotguns may be specialized, but a quality 12ga with a magnum chamber will fire anything from 2 3/4" to 3 1/2" shells. 12ga is so extremely common that your choices of ammunition is nearly unlimited. Can you say the same thing for a rifle or a carbine? I very much doubt it. Further, yes, shotgun shells are heavy and bulky compared to rifle or handgun ammunition, but riddle me this: would you rather have 100 rounds of 5.56 for your M4 carbine when you would need at least 8 rounds to put down a single zombie (since headshots are difficult and unlikely if you're in the thick of things and trying to watch every direction at once) or 100 shells of 12ga when you only need 1, maybe 2, shells per zombie?
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Post by GUEST on Jan 22, 2012 18:25:56 GMT
You guys need to study real world shooting alot more, a shotgun blast even at close will not knock a person backward by energy along they might step back or fall down because of pain. I've accidently not had a shotgun against my shoulder when I've fire it, it didn't knock me down or dislocate my shoulder it did hurt a little. I've fired thousand of rounds through all kinds of weapons. I also when a person is shot they usaually fall forward. Newton law does apply.
Who said I will only have 100rds of ammo, even if so I'll take the rifle.
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Post by demonskull on Jan 22, 2012 22:52:35 GMT
I don't believe anyone, was talking about recoil alone. The reason most shot people fall forward is for two reasons actually. First most shot individuals are facing toward their shooter or are advancing toward the shooter, so their center of balance is forward. Second, it's a survival instinct to face toward your immediate danger.
You can't rule out pain and shock, two separate entities, when discussing impact from firearms on the human body.
As far as the shotgun vs a rifle, my two firearms are a 12 ga Mossberg and a .30 M1 carbine. I'll eventually round it out with a .22 and a 30-06 bolt action. Preferably a Remington 700 but I'm open to a Winchester 70.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 23, 2012 22:57:52 GMT
Vincent, the fallacy of your argument about "knockdown power" effects of the shotgun are in that the load of buckshot or slug doesn't "hit" the target and impart the full energy "on" the target. Instead, the pellets penetrate into and through the target, thus partially dampening the immediate imparting of energy and expending much of the energy into whatever they hit after passing through the target. I have killed a lot, make that A LOT of living targets with 12 gauge magnum 00 buckshot and 1 oz. slugs (not the reduced recoil law enforcement stuff) and I have never seen anything knocked down by it. It is usually killed pretty quickly, and it falls in whatever direction it was traveling when hit. But visions of a 12 gauge shotgun "knocking things down/backwards" is a Hollywood glamorization. It's kind of like those 20 lb medievel swords. Everyone knows you have to be as strong as Conan the Barbarian to swing one of those things. For a trained and competent marksman, inside 15-20 yards it's at least as easy to make evacuating head shots with a good M16/M4, as it is with most "riot-type" shotguns. And at that distance, the performance of .223/5.56 on heads is superior to any buckshot load. As poreviously mentioned, the weight of the ammo is a serious detrimental factor for using the shotgun. I think of shotguns as great static area defense/last ditch weapons for defending the castle. Hell, I have 5 Benelli M1 Super 90s and 4 Remington 870s, and I love 'em all. But they have serious drawbacks if you're on the move. Still and all, they both work as well as the user. Both will do a good job in the hands of someone who knows how to employ them. Or both can fail miserably if the user's sphincter is preventing them from seeing what they need to do, i.e. their heads are too far up their asses to observe, orient, decide and act. As to the shotgun shown...yuck. IMO it's an example of hanging everything on it but the kitchen sink, with no idea of actual tactical benefit. The pistolgrip stock on a tang safety Mossberg was already mentioned. Also, the positioning and type of light is all wrong. You have to lose the light to work the action, finding the button is difficult under stress, and the configuration of the button will cause a likely jammed left thumb on the first round of magmun ammo. Also, the positioning of ammo on the right side of the buttstock prevents the shotgun from being shot from the left cheek, which is a must if you have to loan the gun to a lefty, or you have to shoot lefty for a myriad potential of reasons. I don't mean to be such a grumpy downer. This is an interesting and informative thread. Glad you started it. How else would I get to yack on and on about trivial minutia and stuff? :lol:
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 23, 2012 23:12:40 GMT
Yep Mike you seem to have gotten to the heart of it. It seems everyone missed the ? in the thread title. I agree it seems to have been a throw everything on to it but the kitchen sink thing going on. It seemed to me that the gun was overloaded with stuff to make it like those Rambo suvival knives, which ends up making it pretty useless in the end other than to laugh at. :lol:
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Post by GUEST on Jan 24, 2012 0:06:42 GMT
Thanks Mike you said it better than me. Also I've trained that you always keep you survival kit on your person in a pocket or in a belt pouch on you pants belt. This way you will ever be sepperated from it. You know you could fall down a hill you shotgun goes flying into a deep cold river or lake. There goes your survival kit. If you are unlucky enough to go into the water to now you are wet and cold with no way to start a fire, you're dead. Of course if you are like me you carry several bic lighters in different places.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Jan 24, 2012 1:28:33 GMT
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jhart06
Member
Slowly coming back from the depths...
Posts: 3,292
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Post by jhart06 on Jan 24, 2012 1:45:58 GMT
If i'm using a shotgun for zombie, give me an AA 12 or similar and fit it with incendiary rounds. Fire + clumsy zombies = FREEEDOM!
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Jan 24, 2012 1:47:49 GMT
dude...fire doesnt kill zombies, lighting them makes them moire dangerous cuz then u have flaming zombies wanting to grab you and burning everything they toutch! :evil: ......damn Rookies. :lol:
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jhart06
Member
Slowly coming back from the depths...
Posts: 3,292
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Post by jhart06 on Jan 24, 2012 2:28:17 GMT
Do you have any idea how quickly rotting flesh burns? Or if by a miracle one of them hasn't ruptured their guts, the aid of lighting them on fire with compressed methane and other gases in their bowels? Not a rookie. Just a man with a crazy plan. Aint an apocalypse without a little BBQ.
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 24, 2012 2:51:09 GMT
Saito, your partially right. Eventually fire can kill a zombie, if it burns the brain completely. We all know to kill a zombie you must destroy the brain so until the fire does destroy the brain you have a shambling torch zombie to worry about. Night of the Living Dead news clip mentions burning Zombie Emergency Broadcast Alert System Warning Emergency Alert System: Zombie Attack
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