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Post by John Greybeard on Dec 9, 2011 16:13:53 GMT
When I first saw this thread, I jumped to "post a reply"... but then I thought better of it. Decided to wait and see what my colleages here would come up with in answer. That was a good decision. First off, Christian, don't take some of the more combative replys too personally; this isn't exactly a rough crowd here (ok, maybe it actually is - we all love our weapons, and most really like to actually use 'em, to non-leathal effect...), but most hold very passionate opinions and express them accordingly. Sometimes we do play rough, but its not with malice. Second, you were good friends with Jody? How are you asking us questions? Most of us here would give a lot of something to have even spoken with him, let alone share a friendship! I think some of us are going to be bugging the hell out of you, now, to share more of your knowledge about the man. As to your original question: are the Atlanteans realy that different? Specifically the furniture, is it worth the extra cost for the higher end versions? Answer: Yes, they are that different. The answer to the question of their relative value depends on exactly that - value - what do you value? Authenticity? Well, then how can anything beat the Albions, since their production was directly overseen by Jody? (note: here's a page that speaks directly to who designed, who sculpted, and who made the original Atlantean. Coutesy of Brendan, thanks again, Brenno! Its halfway down the post page. Very interesting and informative - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=522&start=110 ) I believe the changes made by Albion were toward creating a more functional, ie: lighter, sword than the original movie version. Functionality? Real bronze versus the various alloys used for cheaper versions - No comparison. For actual use, bronze is strong, pretty much as strong as iron, which is much used for traditional tsubas. The alloys just don't measure up as real sword furniture - the SLO that Rob provided me to work from for the Atlantean Warriors started to break apart (the langettes) as soon as I (carefully) dissembled it. Appearence? Well, the alloys have got some advantage here. At least so far as clean casting goes. The various alloys used melt at a much lower temperature and flow a lot more easily into the mold than real bronze. Much easier to get flawless castings, although Jeffery's point about original vs. knock-off sculptured pieces is very well taken. And here we get back to the authenticity question... Even if the alloy casters had access to the original molds, those clean, flawless-er versions wouldn't be representative of anything like the "real" Atlantean sword. It would have been cast a millenia ago, subject to the same difficulties of casting bronze that I and Jeffery and Albion have to work with today - so even brand new, it wouldn't have looked like the pot-metal clean casts. And the Atlantean was suppose to have been used for who-knows-how-long by the dead Atlantean King before Conan found it - so it would hardly have been in such pristine condition at that time... When you ask if the different Atlantean versions are that different, then, the answer is obviously - yes. When you ask if they are worth so much more, the answer can only come from examination of many other questions. But mostly its a question of what you value. |
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Dec 9, 2011 16:54:01 GMT
D'oh, that's right! More info here, from Jody's webpage: jodysamson.com/about.htm"Most people know Jody as the creator of the "Conan™" swords -- he sculpted and assembled the blade and hilt for the "Master's (Father's) Sword™." He created the blade for and assembled the "Atlantean™" sword. Both have become icons in the Conan™ legend, inspiration to swordsmiths everywhere, and symbols to many of the epitome of swords and swordmaking. Both of the "Conan™" swords were designed by Ron Cobb, while the "Atlantean" sword's hilt components were fabricated by Tim Huchthausen." --Thanks for clearing that up, Christian. The more accurate info we have, the better. I own a Marto, and from what I know about swords? Well, for the price ($500 as of ten years ago), it was made exactly for one purpose: To appear like the original. The furniture is cheap-- Kult of Athena says it's bronze-plated, and in my opinion, not that great (Though *not* as bad as the Windlass version). The blade is stainless steel: ( www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... tean+Sword) "The sword masters from Marto have made this faithful and exclusive reproduction of the fantastic Atlantean Sword from Conan the Barbarian. Features a tempered stainless steel blade with engraved runes. The guard and pommel are plated in bronze and the grip is wrapped in cord." I'll see if I can get some photos of my Marto copy onto the site here. --Edward
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Dec 9, 2011 17:26:35 GMT
Not to be an arse, but Jody Samson didn't design the Atlantean alone.. He actually did very little of the work beyond forging the blade...  I had no idea this much work was done by this many people on the designs, as I only ever heard Jody's name in connection to them. Largely I think because he spearheaded the Albion re-make. That said,. everyone's covered the differences amazingly well. The main difference is in quality of durability and fittings. If you have the two in front of you physically, the differences can sometimes be subtle, but they are there, and drastic once you see them. |
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Post by mcapanelli on Dec 9, 2011 20:52:51 GMT
AND WHO THE HELL ASKED YOU!! Just kidding. There's a karma headed your way for enlightening me. I never really knew he did so little on those swords.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Dec 9, 2011 20:59:19 GMT
Brenno posted it somewhere in I think the Atlantean Warriors sword thread. I was honestly stunned when I read it. Mr. Samson was skilled, but obviously many others were needed to bring this iconic blade to life.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Dec 9, 2011 22:41:49 GMT
Jeffery... that kit-car compassion is funny... and dead-bang on in my view.
When I worked in CA for an auto dealer group... I came out threw the service bay to pick up a car... and I saw what at first glance looked like an awesome Lambo in our garage. My first thought was 'Who the hell brings their Lambo do a Mazda/Subaru dealer for service???' As I got close something felt wrong... I don't know how many here have been right up close to some of these super cars, specifically the Lambos... but tho they like tiny in pics because of the lines, they are actually rather large cars... VERY wide. Some Lambos are as wide as Hummers. So I walked up and saw this car looked perfect, except it was TINY.
Turns out it was a kit car built on a Pontiac Fiero. Someone put a LOT of time, effort and money into making it look bad $emprini... but it was so small in scale compared to the real thing it just weirded me out.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Dec 9, 2011 23:01:34 GMT
Also, I realize everyone posted what I said, page included, before I did, my bad there... My phone didn't show anything after a few posts.
As to the OP's question, the car idea helps, really well actually. Really well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2011 2:26:36 GMT
Brotherbanzai and John, THANK YOU both, sincerely, for both posting the pics, and answering my question. The pics especially, help to discern the aesthetic differences, and your information, john, about the metals and their strengths/weaknesses helps to inform my understanding. Thanks, again.
Oh, I take very little personally, certainly not whats said on an online forum, where I don't even know who I'm talking to. Admittedly, I do get a little frustrated when I don't get answers to the specific questions I asked, and instead get various opinions on things I already know, and never asked (since I already know). Kinda like when a politician gives an incredibly long winded response, but never actually answers the question?
I knew him for a long time, from the early '80's till he left for WI, and still spoke with him from time to time on the phone. I was in his shop with him the last few days when he was packing and shipping stuff to WI. There were many times over the years that myself and a number of others would show up and just hang out at the shop, in the back, just shooting the breeze. Over the years I purchased a number of blades from him, as well. Had one particularly unusual custom sword made for me, as well.
Another point of interest; Jody told me that one of the reasons it took so long to get authorized versions of the Atlantean made was the copyright issue: in this unique case, the shared copyright to the Atlantean belonged to 5 different people: Ron Cobb, Jody, John Milius, Tim Hutchhausen, and Dino DiLaurentis, if memory serves. Don't quote me on that, though, and since Albion ultimately received the rights to produce the sword, I'm sure they could give you more info on this than I could.
YES, I believe that's what the changes were!
Do we know specifically what the chinese version is made from? Can anyone tell from the pics?
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Dec 10, 2011 4:25:36 GMT
It would be really hard to tell from pictures what the fittings are made from... maybe Jeffery or John could hazard a reasonable guess, being that they are both brass workers... but for the rest of us it would be tough. I can say the two cheep knock-offs I've had in the past were made from some sort of pot metal lightly plated, and another was pot metal painted brass color.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 10, 2011 22:46:29 GMT
The cheap parts I showed dissasembled above are made of pot metal. Likely an alloy of tin and zinc. Pot metal isn't a specific kind of metal, just whatever cheap low melt crap they can get. I expect thicker pieces have more zinc while thinner pieces more tin just because of the casting qualities. If you own the piece, scrape an unobtrusive area of the metal to get past the outer layer of paint (possibly plating but could also just be painted). If the underlying metal is silvery in color, it's pot metal. If it's yellow, then it's brass.
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Post by nial on Dec 19, 2011 13:48:24 GMT
"Another point of interest; Jody told me that one of the reasons it took so long to get authorized versions of the Atlantean made was the copyright issue: in this unique case, the shared copyright to the Atlantean belonged to 5 different people: Ron Cobb, Jody, John Milius, Tim Hutchhausen, and Dino DiLaurentis, if memory serves. Don't quote me on that, though, and since Albion ultimately received the rights to produce the sword, I'm sure they could give you more info on this than I could." This was interesting thread to read through,esp Both Jefs and John input about the metals. Thanks guys. RE the above quoate, one of the reason also was that Marto for many year held all licencing rights for Conan Properties. Just to add a little to this. Not only do the cheaper versions look exactly that CHEAP but they have many differences when you see them. There are no nostrils for instance on the cheaper versions of the Atlanteans and also the pommel *as you can see in the pics Jeff posted) are very different in the finer details. The Master's/Father's sword even more so where i think the cheap ones whatever the make bare very little likeness to the original and Albion versions. I myself love those little floors in the bronze they add to the roughness of these powerful swords. They also feel sooo different in their handling. I had both a cheap Chinese Father's sword and the more expensive Marto. Even in these the quality was worlds apart. But compared to my Fable blade version of the Father's sword the difference is instanly noticable. I feel very fortunate to have this beauty.  |
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Post by CivilSavage on Dec 20, 2011 6:43:08 GMT
I'll try and help shed some light as well. As to the authenticity of the Albion vs. and original film Atlantean...they are damn near IDENTICLE other than weight. I have seen them side by side and held each side by side. The orginal in question is Mr. Milius's. Likewise the Father's Sword exhibits the same comparative visual quality. The primary difference is the Albion's have crisper detail. The hilt furniture though isn't really where the issue of effort is in making these swords. It's the blades. Grinding them is nothing short of a nightmare even for someone who has many hours doing just that under their belt. The CNC programing, even more of a chore...particularly when the decision was made to go away from electro-etching to CNC.
Any of the knock-offs...aren't even the same animal. None of them exhibit the double hollow ground blades, the runes are etched not CUT into the steel (the crispness of detail here becomes apparent very quickly). The hilts are toystore level production and so forth. If I were in the market for one of these, I would be going to the ONLY source for the legitimate one...and that's Albion. Period.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Dec 20, 2011 6:49:37 GMT
I'd hardly say Albion is the only legitimate source (as evidenced by Greybeard/Stromlo Swords and Fable Blades) but certainly they are the only production company.
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Post by CivilSavage on Dec 20, 2011 7:01:09 GMT
I'll agree, Stromlo/Fable make nice VERSIONS(in many ways nicer)...they are not however the legitimate source.
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Post by John Greybeard on Dec 21, 2011 15:04:11 GMT
Hahahahahahahahahaha... I've been called "illegitimate" before, Hagetaka, in a number of circumstances and ways, but never before quite like this...hahahahahahaha
Rob of Stromlo provide me with "genuine" Albion moat blades for our project, so that is certainly a legit source... and we have very perposely never described our swords as the Atlantean King's sword of movie fame. From the beginning, we have called ours the Atlantean Warriors' swords - to distinguish them from the Atlantean.
So I will humbly suggest that we are the only legitimate source for the Atlantean Warriors' swords! Ahah!
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Dec 21, 2011 15:22:43 GMT
Indeed! And I can't wait to see if anything comes of the rumblings between you, Stromlo and the Odinman... That possibility makes, as the old saying goes, the codpiece go *ding*!
I'm honestly excited to see these blades finished from Greybeard and Stromlo, and to compare them to other offerings. I wager they're as good or better than most repros save other custom/semi-custom makers and Albion. And I'd love to see where they stack there!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2011 16:58:00 GMT
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Dec 21, 2011 19:01:52 GMT
So far, what I've seen on the Conan Sword thread is pretty awesome. Please keep up the good work, John  . --Edward |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2011 23:23:21 GMT
Oooh you own the windlass Atlantean-- can you give us your opinion of it please? Does it match joedac's review here? viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7423 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2011 0:17:02 GMT
I have had the windlass for about a month. Upon arrival i was disappointed when the pommel fell off, which allowed me to notice how thin the casting was. The sculpt was dissapointing and the handle is a wrapped metal tube. But i decided to hold on and give it a chance. strangely it has grown on me.
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