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Post by Bogus on Jan 17, 2011 1:56:36 GMT
I'd love to be able to pay more for my toys, but I don't have loads of money because I make ~20% less than the going rate for my profession and am just happy to have a job because something like 1 in 4 twentysomethings are unemployed/underemployed/whatever you want to call it. If we as enthusiasts and amateur historians sometimes seem to have unreasonable expectations, perhaps it is because such expectations are often placed on us as well.  Anyway, I'm quite curious how the "reverse Frankensword" turns out too. Excepting rapiers, there's painfully few Renaissance and late-period medieval blades of any quality out there so if you manage to come up with a better sidesword and passable light arming sword that'd be pretty cool. The "303SS" fittings look a bit loose but that, like you said, that can probably be remedied with a thick leather wrap and maybe a little epoxy. |
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Jan 17, 2011 4:30:08 GMT
Yea, I'm sorry I blew up there--it just seems like such a selfish statement to go looking for a bare blade 303s. Why would you? Because you don't want an included full-wood-core scabbard that will fit whatever sword you end up making? Because you don't want a set of fittings you can use for another project or sell to someone looking to mount a bare blade they have? No. It sounds like you want a quality, fully-finished and properly edged Valiant Armoury blade for LESS MONEY than the $215 full sword. To do that and then plan specifically to mount it up with Hanwei fittings instead just pisses me off when I think of how it would sound to the guy you would have to talk to in order to get the bare blade. I know it wasn't done maliciously, but it seemed to speak to that same attitude that keeps cropping up everywhere of "why can't I have my cake and eat it, too?" "I can't justify spending more than $100 or so, can I you guys recommend a good sword?" Well, no. Unfortunately. There aren't really any free lunches if you want good swords. They START around $200-$300. When I hear comments like those that Bogus just brought up, I always think: If someone really can't spend more than $100-$200 on a sword, then maybe you should have a different hobby, you know? These are really silly luxury items--spend your money on more important things. Swords are not a necessity. If, however, you just don't WANT to spend more but probably COULD, then that's on you. I myself am a full-time college student, a curious group of people that often claim to have no money while surrounded by evidence that they do.  It's true that I don't have much spending money or a even a steady paycheck (since I'm at school 24-7), but I have some nice swords. I don't have an Ipod or a trendy cellphone, but I have an Angus Trim 1557. I don't have an Apple Macbook, but I have an Albion Borderwatch. I don't have a video game console or a collection of games, but I have a Venetian Bastard Sword. $300+ sword prices seem far from unreasonable to me. Anyway, this is an awesome project, and one I might even replicate myself (I'd rather see if I could modify the VA pommel to look appropriate with the new guard since I HATE the screw-on pommel construction of the sidesword). But if I do, I'll buy a whole VA 303s, because COME ON. Sonny at least deserves the very low price he charges for such a sword. Heck, a lot of Windlass pieces retail for more than a 303s, ever notice that? If I can't justify that cost, than I won't do the project at all. I don't deserve a damn thing if I can't afford it. |
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Jan 17, 2011 4:44:01 GMT
What I would like to see is a small sword done by Sonny......could use the 303 blade with fittings designed by Sonny to compete with the few small swords on the market that we have to choose from. With the quality and pricing that Sonny brings to the table I am sure that it would be a popular item.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 17, 2011 4:46:16 GMT
I could get behind that! If Sonny could put together a complex hilted arming sword in the Signature line, I'd feel morally obligated to buy one. (And I can justify it by saying, "Everyone needs a pair of arming swords with complex hilts, don't they?")
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Post by johnapsega on Jan 17, 2011 4:53:59 GMT
Lunaman This is amazing. I 100 percent agree and could not have said this better in any way myself. For this you get +1 from me. Now more on topic...I love this project and I am not sorely tempted to replicate this.  How would this stack up to the windlass Munich town guard. Also I think that a review might be in order once this is totally finished up. I would love it is Sonney made a sidesword for the signature line. I think there should be more sideswords in the under 300$ market. |
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Jan 17, 2011 4:57:24 GMT
Me too KC......I would buy one.......particularly if it was a signature trim.
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Post by Student of Sword on Jan 17, 2011 5:00:26 GMT
Couldn't agree more. Sword collecting is a luxury. You need to give up other luxuries to acquire this hobby.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 17, 2011 5:31:00 GMT
As much as I'd like to see Sonny do something like this, I need to also acknowledge that Hanwei could turn one out in pretty short order as well. They already make the guard, after all, for the side sword. They already make the H/T Single Hand Sword blade. Adapting the two to each other should be the work of only moments. Ideally, an appropriate pommel could be devised to work with the Tinker standard pommel nut, and the hollow plastic handle of the side sword subbed with a suitably shortened wood/leather H/T grip.
Given that the side sword is $139 (!) and the Single Handed Sword $159 (!!), both from KOA, Hanwei could produce and market such a H/T Town Guard Sword for $200, unless I miss my guess. (Note: I'm just putting that price out there based on the extant H/T line. Personally, I think I'd pay a good bit more for that setup.)
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Post by johnapsega on Jan 17, 2011 5:40:51 GMT
Well I remember someone saying that there might be a couple of new H/T's coming out this year so maybe this could be one of them. |
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 17, 2011 9:39:20 GMT
First off, KC I like the end result, and I will do it myself when I get a 303S ordered. Plus 1 for a good idea goes to you.
Second, Luna I know where from you are coming with your expressed statements, but I would caution you that we do not want to come off as elitists. It would be very easy to put someone off of the hobby by saying "You got to have $300 or you cant play"
I'm not down on anyone, and am not making judgement calls, I'm just saying.
As a side note, and for a little humor, can you immagine the feeding frenzy if a 303S popped up on the classifieds right now for a low ball price??
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Post by Enkidu on Jan 17, 2011 15:06:07 GMT
Thinking about it... i'm with you Chuck.
If i want a Lundemo custom I'm gonna spend what its worth to get it, but if i want a sub 200$ blade i'm glad that there's some company offering me the option. And if that means that more people can be interested into this hobby because there's some low price quality stuff that also mean that people offering high-end will probably get more customers in the future. We all started with low price stuff and then for some moved on high end blades. If i had never got the opportunity to lay my hands on my real first sword at a good price i would never have gotten an Atrim or a real Tinker sword.
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Post by frankthebunny on Jan 17, 2011 17:06:52 GMT
I also agree with Lunaman. we are all a member of this sub $300 sword forum and I feel we have many choices of fine swords for this price range. it wouldn't make sense to be perusing for low cost cars at a Hyundai dealership and then ask to see a BMW for the same price. if by some miracle that higher priced car was offered to you at the lower price, the sales person would loose their commission, the factory would loose money and eventually would go out of business.
as our tastes change and become more expensive, our understanding of what we are expected to pay must also adjust, we want gold but only want to pay for brass.........good luck with that.
consider what kind of quality we can expect for $300 today compared to 5-10 years ago.
for those who don't want to spend even $200, there is always the Bud K catalog
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 17, 2011 17:44:03 GMT
I'm not qualified to hold myself out as a sword snob, nor to judge other people in their preferences for collecting. I know this, though: I want to support Sonny Suttles, Valiant Armoury, Angus Trim and Christian Fletcher. Their collaboration on the Signature Line, and the performance cutting line, has led to better---vastly better---swords than the SBG market had access to even a few short years ago.
I don't know how big Paul Chen/Hanwei is, but I've got the feeling that Valiant is pretty much a one man show. Sonny took a big risk when he bought Valiant and upgraded the quality, and I want to see him succeed.
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Post by Bogus on Jan 17, 2011 19:00:16 GMT
AFAIK Hanwei employs around 300 people, so size-wise they're probably second only to Windlass on account of the latter's doing a lot of large government contracts. Their founder is supposedly a Japanese sword enthusiast, though I don't know how much of that is marketing hype.
Also, to clarify, I wasn't trying to say that it was right/wrong to want dirt cheap product, only that everyone does indeed want to have their cake and eat it--and in a deep recession they often get to do just that. One-eyed blind king and all that stuff.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 17, 2011 19:14:29 GMT
wow, I missed a lot of cool stuff by not tuning in to this thread until so late. I like the look of that hilt on the 303, pretty nice there.
I'm glad to see such support for Sonny, Christian, Gus and Tinker. these guys have done really good things for us. I agree with Lunaman about not asking for everything for under $200, but I certainly understand that if $200 is your price limit then you still want the best you can get for that. but make no mistake guys SBG is a serious player in the sword industry. we don't have an iron clad control on the market but our presence and our opinion is definitely felt. let's keep that in mind when we push for things. I mean after all how would you feel if you found out your favorite sword maker/supplier was barely surviving because they sell their swords so cheaply. guess what guys, just about every man that makes or sells swords for a living lives a lower standard of comfort than you or I. yes, even you. I'm not saying we should start pushing everyone to buy expensive swords, I'm just reminding us that we have to be careful how far down we push things. that's all.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 17, 2011 23:52:18 GMT
I dont want to see anyone take sides, and I was NOT disagreeing with Luna when I posted originally.
Everyone here wants to own Atrims or pieces from A&A. Some can, and some have to dream for awhile.
All the posts dealing with prices in this thread should be read, considered, and weighed against where we would like to see the industry in say 5 years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 20:15:14 GMT
I have to be honest guys and maybe I am way off base but that is not a ricasso but a tang. Even blades with a ricasso have shoulders that the cross/guard will bear on. If the tang is left soft as some sword blades are you may get some serious bending the first time you strike anything very hard. Even if the tang is hardened.I know some are, there is still no shoulder for support. If hard it may become a helicopter blade.Isn't the 303 a type xii? Wouldn't it be kind of odd to place that early a period blade and blade in a hilt from the later centuries? It may be an attractive opportunity to mix and match but I can only hope the wielder of the object feels safe and has considered that there will be no shoulder and support to that tang beside whatever is going to be the handle. Pairing that blade type with the type of guard shown just looks out of place to be to begin with.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 18, 2011 22:37:39 GMT
Okay, heres another take on KCs killer idea for a sidesword based on the Hanwei piece. This one uses a H/T EMSHS, and balances at 2-3/4 inches from the front of the guard. I used a file to square the inside of the cast sidesword guard, very slightly ground the edges of the tang on a bench mounted disc sander to slim the taper very slightly so that the guard had to be driven the last 1/4 inch to seat on the blade shoulders. The front arms of the guard clear the tang by 1/8th inch and with the leather ricasso wrap from the sidesword there, the fit is exactly the same as the original sidesword. It fit up pretty darn good in other words.    It may not be CORRECT, but it looks neat, and I like it. There again I was not trying to recreate a known piece, pure fantasy I suppose you could call it. Considering that you could take the same sword, simply wrap the tang with cloth, commence to flail away with it and have no worries, I do not believe that this piece is going to fly apart any time soon. I have not cut with it yet though, so maybe I am wrong in my supposition. Anyways, heres a cheaper option than tearing down a 303S for the budget minded sword part swapper. Thanks for the idea and motivation KC, all credit goes to you. |
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 19, 2011 0:41:13 GMT
Chuck that is the bomb! I think that looks even better than the 303! Hmm, now . . . .
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Jan 19, 2011 0:52:40 GMT
I, too, like the looks of this one even better! ( I think I've already said what I wanted to say about pricing, etc., so I won't further that area of discussion.  )Anyway, the sharper profile taper of the Tinker blade looks marvelous with the complex guard. REALLY nice. BUT (and this is a big 'but') the assembly still makes me nervous. I have no doubts about the sturdiness of the blade; I've seen what Tom K once did with an EMSHS and a brick. :shock: Rather, it's the way the sword is put together that's worrisome---that VERY heavy screw-on pommel basically takes a sword that had a sturdy and safe method of construction and sets it up for failure if you do any cutting (something few would do with the standard sidesword but would be the PRIMARY thing I'd want to do with this Tinker blade.) To quote from BrotherBanzai's excellent thread on making a stock removal sword, if a sword is to do anything other than thrust, it's very important that the pommel be keyed to the tang, whether the sword is peened or secured with a recessed nut. That way, the full breadth of the tang helps bear the load and there is a ton of surface area interaction between the two pieces. Failing that, the pommel should at least be secured independently from the grip and the rest of the assembly, and neither is the case here. We know that the threaded area of the EMSHS blade (and the VA 303 for that matter) is no bigger or sturdier than the threaded portion of the original sidesword blade, simple because the pommel fits on them. This small area is normally fine for the swap-in blades because they are meant to be used with Keyed pommels and recessed nuts. But we're now forcing that small threaded portion to bear the full weight and lateral stresses of this oversized pommel all by itself. We've gone from the middle image in that last picture to the one on the far right, and we've already seen how well that assembly works with this pommel and grip:   That's Shootermike's sidesword--he flubbed one cut on a bottle and the jarring force bent the threaded area of the tang out of alignment. Now, yes, I know the thread on that blade is welded on, but the weld is a discussion for a whole 'nother thread--you can clearly see that the pommel bent the threaded portion, not the weld. Worse, the interior of the grip is not tapered to fit the tang, only held still by the compression from the screw-on pommel, which means the entire assembly goes out of alignment when the threaded portion fails. It's asking for trouble. If I were to try this project and wanted the sword to do anything more than look nice, I would not risk that sort of thing. I'd modify the "bland" pommel from a full EMSHS or 303S to look decent with the guard instead. |
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It's true that I don't have much spending money or a even a steady paycheck (since I'm at school 24-7), but I have some nice swords. I don't have an Ipod or a trendy cellphone, but I have an Angus Trim 1557. I don't have an Apple Macbook, but I have an Albion Borderwatch. I don't have a video game console or a collection of games, but I have a Venetian Bastard Sword. $300+ sword prices seem far from unreasonable to me.
How would this stack up to the windlass Munich town guard. Also I think that a review might be in order once this is totally finished up.
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