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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 19, 2011 12:59:20 GMT
Lunaman:
Good point! I might clarify (or maybe it's obfuscate) one issue, though. I think the Hanwei Side Sword suffers from two issues, and they're both related to the grip. As you point out, the very heavy screw on pommel is sub-optimal at best. However, i think the real problem arises in conjunction with the screw on pommel, and that's the hollow plastic grip.
That is, the heavy screw on (un-keyed) pommel would be bad enough all on its own. When, however, that pommel's weight is allowed to twist and tug on an unsupported tang, it gets worse still.
From the first time I unwrapped the side sword, I kept on telling myself, "OK, it won't be done until I resolve the hollow grip." Even after Frankenswording it, that caution still remains. I'll have to ponder on this some, and try to come up with a solid and workable solution.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 19, 2011 13:49:02 GMT
In view of Lunas informative post, my next move will be either-
1- figure out a way to utilize the EMSHS pommel and nut to work with the sidesword grip and not look too funky
OR
2- Shorten the EMSHS grip to the length of the Sidesword grip and utilize it with the EMSHS pommel.
What do you guys think?
I like the look of the Sidesword grip, and had planned to fill it and bond it to the tang with JB Weld for stability, but it may very well look better with a shortened EMSHS grip.
Lunas post has me thinking that the way to go will be the shortened Tinker grip and the keyed pommel, no sense mucking about if I want to cut with it eh?
Maybe this is the opportunity I need to try my hand at wire wrapping a grip?
I will ponder upon this and whatever conclusion I come to, pictures will be forthcoming.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 19, 2011 14:27:36 GMT
Chuck: I think you're definitely on the right track. All along, my plan has been to do some kind of JB-weld-ish filling of the (cursed hollow plastic) grip. My motivations were two-fold: first, it seemed simpler than actually, you know, making a replacement grip, and second, the existing grip is just dang pretty to my eyes. However, using a "proper" (i.e., solid wood, leather wrapped) grip is probably a better idea. Similarly, in light of Lunaman's post, I think re-using the original (H/T) pommel is a good idea. The post that originally sparked my interest was over at MyArmoury.com. www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19621 Viewing the originals, I can see a plainer, less ornate pommel really working with this setup. I myself had a deviant thought earlier. I have no idea if it would be at all historically accurate, but I envisioned your side sword with the grip from a VA Signature line Bristol. I think that would look wicked. |
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 19, 2011 15:40:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 15:55:44 GMT
I am quite familiar and apparently not getting across a pretty simple comment regarding the 303 blade with the Hanwei components stuffed on them. The Tinker tang looks wider and unfullered in that section and I would give it more hope with a well fit shoulder for the hilt to bear on. Are both tangs hardened? If the tang is soft, it will bend. Some are quite soft.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 19, 2011 16:17:10 GMT
The Tinker tang is wider and fits up to the Sidesword guard as good as if not better than the original blade. The front arms of the guard butt against the blade shoulders decently. The original blade was fullered up into the tang/ricasso 1/2 inch or so, the Tinker blade is fullered exactly the same. After grinding a bit and filing on the tang of the Tinker blade I can say that it is not soft. Where it falls on the Rc scale I can not say, but it is not dead soft.
By the way Edelweiss, your original post was noted, and considered when I tore the H/T down for the swap. Upon discovering that the tang was not soft, I proceeded. I neglected to include this information in my post showing the results.
Sorry for the omission.
I was worrying about shortening the grip too much to use the Tinker pommel, and the piece looking goofy. Upon reviewing the thread on MA, some of the originals had rather short grips on them, so no worries there. My main concern now is solid construction, and a balanced look to the finished piece.
A Bristol shaped grip, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Post by Earncynn on Jan 19, 2011 18:18:43 GMT
I am very late, as is usual, to this great thread. Some excellent posts and TWO great conversions KC and Chuck. I like reading stories about Frankenswords....got one meself !!
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 19, 2011 18:35:11 GMT
I think that one is just SLIGHTLY in a different class . . . .
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 24, 2011 14:34:06 GMT
Yes, more elegant and purposeful looking. I've always admired that sword myself.
Well, heres what I cam up with for Frankensword 2.0
A waisted grip ala KCs idea for a Bristol grip, and a scent stopper pommel. I am going to use the pommel from a Windlass German Bastard Sword as a pattern and turn it out of some stock that I have laying around.
I am going to drill the pommel and use the Tinker hex screw for assembly, and I will turn a hollow cavity in the base of the pommel for a section of the grip to fit in like a tenon. In conjunction with the compression of the hex screw, this should aleviate any concerns about the pommels sturdiness.
In order to keep the grip the length that I want it, I will not be able to key it to the tang unfortunately, but I believe that the above method will offer a sturdy enough set up. I am still undecided as to how to finish the grip off, leather, wire, leather and wire, goblin skin, corn husks................................?
I should be able to get going on it and get some pics up by this weekend, so stay posted.
As a side note- I have an older Cold Steel great sword without the parrying hooks and it has a screw on pommel that is threaded the same as the Hanwei pommel. The Renaissance side sword pommel looks really cool on it, and adds a bit of flair. I used the EMSHS guard on my H/T Longsword, Milled the pommel to copy a fishtail looking one that Sonny posted pictures of a while back, and it came out sleek and mean looking.
I'll post some pics of them later on too.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 24, 2011 15:02:27 GMT
Two attractive and interesting-looking swords shown above. Congratz on putting them together.
But a word of warning: I did this about 3 years ago with an ATrim blade and the Hanwei sidesword guard. The guard is cast stainless, but can become very "bendable." With a little use, the front ring that bears on the blade shoulders will start to bend backwards (compress into the hilt) and allow the fit to come loose. As you re-tighten it, the blade shoulders will gain leverage on the guard and cause it to bend badly, ruining the guard.
The real answer is to cut a ricasso into the blade, forward of the shoulders. That way the correct part of the guard will bear directly on the shoulders and the finger rings will "float" just off the blade. With the VA blade, the ricasso doesn't have to be very much narrower than the edge. The forward rings of the Hanwei guard can be spread to fit the wider blade.
You could just spread the guard rings enough to fit over the edges. But that would leave the edges exposed and not so good if you finger what's supposed to be the ricasso area.
In any case, both the swords pictured look attractive. I have a weak spot for arming swords with complex guards, and those both look very pleasing.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 24, 2011 15:49:58 GMT
Very interesting thoughts Mike, and thanks a bunch for posting with your experience trying this idea.
Let me run this by you and see what you think. Instead of cutting the blade down to from a ricasso and effectively moving the guard forward, necessitating redoing the tang to compensate, what do you think of a steel spacer that would replace the leather ricasso wrap?
I'm thinking I could fab one up, keep it fairly slim and trim, and then leather wrap that to disguise its presence.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 24, 2011 22:01:22 GMT
That is exactly what I had thought about doing to fit this guard onto a bastard sword hilt. I just ran out of motivation and never followed up. I hope you will try it and see if it works. If so, I have one of these guards laying around gathering dust...
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Post by Greg on Jan 26, 2011 1:44:59 GMT
Hey! I get to be late too!
But I love the spirit in which this was attempted, and one day I may take this idea and run with it.
Mike has already said what was on my mind, but I will add that if one were patient enough, they could key out the side sword pommel for the 303 tang to distribute more of the weight. This would take some equipment, of course, that most people may not have access to, like a drill press.
But this was definitely a worthwhile project!
Edit: Oh, and as far as the discussion of buying a bare blade from Sonny, I don't think they'd be getting out "on the cheap." Back when I was first getting into swords, I had sent Sonny an email about how much a pommel and guard would cost for the 303. He quoted me $60. I had originally wanted a backup set so that I could customize the first without the worry of messing up the custom job.
I'm not sure what the exact charge buying the sword one piece at a time, but I'm sure if someone were to place an order for all the parts of a sword, that the final price would come out to be greater then just ordering the full sword.
So in a sense, it's better for Sonny to just sell a bare blade because he would turn a bigger profit.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 27, 2011 1:55:30 GMT
Guys:
Wow, I am amazed (and thrilled) that this thread has taken on such life. I've got a few different reasons: it's nice to see threads run long and take on a life of their own, sometimes different than you'd anticipated, plus, of course, it was my little idea that sparked this all.
I'll confess----a cruddy selfish part of me is somewhat disappointed that I'm not the first guy to look at these bits and think they might go well together. And I'm ashamed of that part of me. Then again . . . it still is kind of a neat idea, innit? I am thrilled that my crazy idea has attracted attention, commentary and approbation from TomK and Mike Harris, since they're two of the people whose opinions here at SBG I value the most. (Not that I'm their paduan learner or anything, and not that they're Yoda or anything, because for one thing, grammar is their better, yes.)
I've been delaying posting because I'm a procrastinator, and the way I ought to proceed from here is clear. Mike's comments about grinding a ricasso into the blade make a lot of sense, but you can't do that project sitting on your butt and just thinking about it, and sitting on my butt and just thinking about it is what I do best. (It's like how bouncing is what tiggers do best.)
However, I'm going to go ahead. My tool selection is limited, and the weather is limiting my outdoor playing with swords in bits and pieces time, and despite that, I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to take the basic idea---the 303 fitted with the Hanwei side sword guard----and "make it so." (To quote Picard, although on the whole I prefer the Picard Planchet. Sorry, just reread the Three Musketeers, so there.)
I'm going to put in a ricasso so that the guard fits onto the blade, and plan on reusing the original grip and pommel, if possible.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 27, 2011 14:32:42 GMT
Sounds like a project KC, get going on it so we can see some pics of the results  I should have my version together this weekend, not completed, but together. I can't figure out what I am going to do to finish the grip yet. Thanks again for posting a killer idea and spurring me to finally do something with that Hanwei Sidesword. |
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 31, 2011 17:52:42 GMT
Well, heres what I wound up with. I like it, but I think that I need to turn the OD of the grip down a little bit.    I turned the grip from a piece of Walnut that I had, using a friends wood lathe. bandsawed and filed the flats on the side, and gave it a plain leather wrap to decide if it would work as is or needs some refining. I drilled a hole through the center of my blank before beginning, and then used files and chisels to fit it to the tang.    The pommel is copied from the pommel on a Windlass German Bastard Sword that I have, and is socketed so that it fits over a tenon on the end of the pommel to stabilize the assembly. Compressed with the hex nut, it is rock solid, and should alleviate any undue stress on the threaded end of the tang. The pommel was drilled to clear the threaded section of the tang, and then counter drilled to provide a shoulder for the hex nut to tighten against. I got a full 1/4 inch of thread engagement, so that suits me fine. The guard rests against two stops that I cut out of A-2 and Silver soldered to the top and bottom edge of the tang. These should serve to prevent any compression of the front arms of the guard against the blade shoulders and deformation of the guard during use. I neglected to snap a pic of them, but can if someone needs to see how I did it. They are right at an inch long and are 1/8 inch thick. Considering the ammount of surface that was silver soldered I do not anticipate any problems with structural weakness. Once I decide if the grip will suit me or not, I will craft a leather ricasso wrap to match the grip color so that it doesn't look like such a mishmash. I also need to craft a cap to fit the end of the pommel to disguise the hole for the hex nut. Once everything is finalized where I want it to be, I will coat the tang with release agent, and fill the grip with Brownells AcraGlass to eliminate any voids that may exist, making it as solid as can be. |
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 31, 2011 23:31:31 GMT
Chuck, that is the bomb. Well done---and quickly, too, while I continue to slowly grind away!----and well documented. I really, really like the look of that one. Karma!
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Post by chuckinohio on Feb 1, 2011 12:59:03 GMT
Thanks KC, thanks for the compliment, and thanks again for putting this idea forth. I had a lot of fun fooling around with this one, and learned a few things to boot.
The H/T swords are on sale again from Stromloswords, I'm thinking about trying this idea on the H/T unfullered bastard.
That one would have more of a true CutnThrust look to it.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Feb 2, 2011 18:54:26 GMT
Quick question: I don't know if you answered this already but did you try this with the EMSHS or bastard disc pommel? I'm interested in how that might look if it happens to fit together; I think the disc pommel could look rather nice.
Did you make that pommel yourself? It's definitely a nice one... what would be the general price for more like it, do you think?
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Post by chuckinohio on Feb 2, 2011 19:16:18 GMT
Elheru, Yes the EMSHS disc pommel would have worked fine. One could merely cut down the EMSHS grip, cutting off the guard end to fit the tang remaining and use the existing pommel, but where is the fun in that  I actually considered doing that very thing, but wanted a more sculpted looking grip, and that gave me a chance to make a pommel to go with it. Yes I made the pommel myself, copying a pommel from a Windlass German Bastard Sword. I also copied the grip on a wood lathe to make my grip for the frankensword. It fit the general idea of what I wanted, and was there to use as a pattern. Making more of them would pose a problem for me, as I use a friends lathe as a favor, and he knows that I do projects. If he thought that I was trying to make some coin he might get miffed. I usually throw him a 12 pack, and we chew the fat while I spin a part after hours. That also is how I get my Bridgeport time. |
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