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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 29, 2010 0:34:04 GMT
What of a chalked bokuto with a plastic saya? It might be a little safer since even an aluminum iaito can cut if swung hard enough. Still, it would be interesting to actually see the results of it.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Oct 29, 2010 2:34:18 GMT
At 3-5 feet one can get away with instinctive shooting with the pistol against the side, but beyond this, shots tend to hit in unexpected positions. If you want to be assured of hitting your target effectively beyond five feet, you will need to "point". If you want to stop the threat, you will need to hit a vital area. As civilians we are not permitted the luxury of missing and possibly hitting an innocent. We will have to account for every shot fired, both legally and for conscience sake. I guess I must chalk this up it up to hyperbole/exaggeration on your part. When the weapon clears the holster, it is pointing down and the wrist is articulated down. (We're not using IPSC open front speed holsters.) The wrist will relax and become aligned, albeit more slowly, when the weapon is brought to the near staging area in front where the "clap" occurs (the two handed grip is made). The wrist cock can be done immediately when clearing leather. But I tend to combine the wrist cock with the outward cant and placing the arm against the side. It takes longer, but I can index better on target this way which increases my likelihood of hitting the near target. So, which HG do you own? The SIG? Is it a TDA (traditional double action)? If you ever make it to Arizona, you should check out some of the excellent schools which work out of the Ben Avery Shooting Facility. I can highly recommend Tac Train, one that I and many of my coworkers have trained out of. George Dean, the director, is an old veteran that can smell BS a mile away.
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 29, 2010 4:17:40 GMT
Larry,
The SIG I used at the course is the U.S. Military M11 version which is essentially a P229 (it is not my personal SIG). I own one as well. I also own a P226. However, I prefer a Glock 23. Wishlist = Kimber. The course we took were DOD sponsored course contracted out to Black Water. This course is taught to DOD civilians who have to deploy overseas to support military operation. We were not expected to fight a war (or even participate in it), but rather just to defend ourselves if all else fail. 2/3 of us were prior services, the remainder have no military experience.
The first two days is identical to a normal pistol qualification course in the Army -- 25 meters standing, kneeling, and prone. After that, we were taught to shoot from inside the vehicles (stationary and moving), even shooting through the windshield. A couple days of shooting while walking (forward, backward, sideway). The close range shooting was the last two days of the course. In one of the scenario, we literally jammed our barrel point-blank into the target (barrel touch the target) and pulled our trigger as fast as it is possible.
PS: When I said first two days, I meant the first 2 days of pistols. We were trained with M4 as well (before learning pistol). However, the M4 training and qualification was very different from the Army. 100 meters is the furthest we expect to shoot (versus 300 meters in the Army), however most of the shooting were done under 50 meters. A lot of emphasis was placed on quick magazine change (both in the pistol and rifle course).
As a former Army guy, this course was very different from my previous experiences. A few things said and taught that were actually contrary to what I learned in the Army. Prior to that, the Army was the bulk of my formal markmanship education.
Oh! There was the tactical driving course as well. I did things that I would never do with my own car. That was the most fun I had in years. I am hoping they will send me back to the course.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2010 4:37:49 GMT
Larry, Student, The discussion on body mechanics brings back nightmares of task analysis research I had to do for my assessment in science education class. *shudders* I understand the reason for the task analysis; when life or death is a quarter or a tenth of a second away, you have to make sure you train people in the "best" way. I haven't had a defensive shooting class yet, I think it'd be a great summer activity to do with the wife. Regardless, in either of your experiences, did the instructors cover the "Plan B" if/when you run out of ammo or even a simple failure to load/eject? I'm just curious if they assumed you had a back up (Ruger LCR/S&W Bodyguard) or not.
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 29, 2010 4:42:50 GMT
Hallmar,
There can be only so many back-up plans. Eventually, there is only one plan left -- pray. Also remember that time is a factor. There are only so much time to teach. Something is a priority and is taught first. And there are stuffs that is simply not taught if time run out. This is why the Army dropped bayonet training from Basic. They added so much more firearms training that there is no time left of bayonet. I had a blast with bayonet training but I have to agree that it is less important than firearms training. However, why not just add another week to Basic Training?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2010 4:53:58 GMT
I don't know who said that battle plans never survive contact with the enemy, but I do remember that Gen. Patton said, "Battle is an orgy of disorder." Oh, how I wish I had met that man... :lol:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2010 4:57:37 GMT
Not being in the Army, I can only hypothesize. Then again, they do a lot of things that make me shake my head. My guess: It happens so rarely (see the first post of the thread), that it's not worth the time, and time is money.
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Post by MOK on Oct 29, 2010 18:52:45 GMT
Helmuth von Moltke, Sr., although the original phrasing goes "No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength." Not as catchy, eh? The man also said "Strategy is a system of expedients," another sentiment I've always agreed with.
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Post by ShooterMike on Oct 29, 2010 21:29:31 GMT
Just saw this thread today when Gus Trim called and told me about it. So, I read most of the posts, at least the ones that seemed related to the OP. It is an interesting topic. I personally think that the right kind of sword could still be relevent in a modern context, under a certain set of uncommon conditions. I was thinking "post-katrina disaster situation" or similar set of circumstances where you would openly wear weapons and deal with potentially hostile individuals at close range. In that kind of situation you might be dealing with a number of people, yet not know who the fairly few potentially hostile ones are until they get confrontational or violent. At close quarters a good sword in trained hands can be devastating.
The question always seems to come up in these discussions of "which is faster, a sword or a handgun?" So me being the noodling type, I set about to do some testing. To do an "apples-to-apples" comparison, I setup a shooting target and a cutting target, both at the optimum effective distance of the sword. I then used an electronic shot timer from Competition Electronics that measures to the 100th of a second (0.01 of a second). I started with the hand on the gun/sword in the optimum stance for each weapon. The start was set to "random" of offer a surprise start beep. These timers sense sound to measure the interval of time between the beginning of the start beep and each subsequent shot.
I made three attempts with the pistol, drawn from a standard BladeTech open carry holster. The times for these three attempts were, in order, 0.57, 0.55, and 0.51 of a second to draw and place a decent center-body hit on the target. That may sound fast, but it really isn't. I'm getting old and slow. When I did some similar testing 10-15 years ago the times were in the 0.35-0.45 range.
Since a sword cut isn't loud enough to register on the timer, I programmed the "Par Time" setting to 0.60 of a second. This setting gives two beeps. First the start beep, then a stop beep at the par time interval that I set (0.60 of a second). I then made three good cuts on plastic bottles with my ATrim Tactical Willowleaf sword, drawn from the scabbard Sonny Suttles built me a few months ago.
The results were that on three attempts, the sword blade was somewhere near, inside, or just beyond the target when the 0.60 second stop beep was heard. To me, that is a virtual tie.
So, at least in my mind, the answer is: All things being equal, I'd hate to try to live on the difference, because a difference doesn't really exist. And the outcome would most certainly be determined by other factors like distance, awareness, reaction time, and most of all, willingness to commit violence.
Just thought some of you might get a kick out of this silliness I find myself engaging in from time to time. :lol:
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Post by Larry Jordan on Oct 29, 2010 21:38:20 GMT
I found this illustrative video while looking for James Williams doing some drawing and cutting:
Our very own Hyoujinsama demonstrates!
The video is a little grainy. Is this a Hanwei Pratical Iaito?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 5:20:58 GMT
Of course, very cool! Thanks a lot for your interest and time to experiment! +1 to you!
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Oct 30, 2010 11:17:04 GMT
Thanks Mike, that clears ip up considerably I think. Now guns are nothing I'm interested in, but that willowleaf scabbard... would you mind posting a pic? I'm thinking about a tactical scabbard but have no idea how to go about that.
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Post by ShooterMike on Oct 31, 2010 21:30:45 GMT
It's nothing special. Just a well-fitted thick wood core with leather covering and leather chape. Then the whole think is covered in black truck bed liner ala Rhino Liner.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Oct 31, 2010 23:16:26 GMT
Age catches us all my friend... I am a very, VERY pale shadow of myself from 15-20 years ago... however, I'm working on it. I'm currently 30lbs lighter then when you last saw me. Also... your 'slow' is still blinding to me... after see how quickly your could clear holster and fire, or produce a knife at close range... even in my prime I think I would have been in trouble.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Oct 31, 2010 23:20:20 GMT
I'd like to see that as well... did Sonny cover it with the 'Rhino liner' or did you do that after the fact? I'm hopping to get my hands on some Atrim TacBlades now that Gus is going to revisit them... and that set up sounds like the perfect scabbard for them.
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