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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2010 20:04:24 GMT
Maybe I should start a pole and take bets to see what Tinker would do before you ask... 1) heart attack 2) aneurysm 3) blood out his ears 4) blood out his eyes or 5) steam out of every orifice...haha!
Edit: Tinker, if you're reading this, it's all in good fun. I, in no way, am encouraging fanboys to endanger your health. We wish you all the best. :-) But still enjoy a good laugh!
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 27, 2010 20:18:51 GMT
[/attachment] The next time Tinker has one of his Sword Geek podcasts ask him if he can make one. I'd bet he shoots blood out of his ears! HA![/quote] Nope. The pistol sword is actually a real weapon, albeit it was never very popular. A prime example is the 1838 U.S. Elgin Pistol which was built with an attached 11.5 inch bowie blade into it used for boarding parties; only 150 were ever made. T Rauh of Solingen filed a patent in the U.S. for a 9mm pistol with a 30 inch blade. (Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_Sword) Did you mean you couldn't see the image or hadn't seen it before? If it's the former, I uploaded the image to my own photobucket: As for actually making one, while I'd personally love one (eventually, that is) just for the sake of owning one, I think you'd have to be both a bladesmith and a gunsmith to make one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2010 22:57:52 GMT
I jokingly (there is seriousness to it though) tell people that when all of the ammo runs out I'll have my swords! So in that sense I think they are still practical. I have a question along this topic line, sort of. Would you rather be shot with a small caliber hand gun, like a .32 or maybe a 9mm, by an inexperienced operator or slashed with a sword? I mean Reagan was shot a bunch of times with a .22 and the Pope was shot like five times with a 9mm and they both survived. I think I'd choose the gun shot, but keep in mind I have mental issues. :lol:
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 27, 2010 23:32:00 GMT
If a person has formal instruction on pistol usage by a qualified instructor, said person would know how to draw a pistol faster and more naturally. Again, it comes down to proper instruction from qualified instructor. You need instruction to learn how to shoot. You need instruction to learn how to use a sword. You need instruction to learn to how to drive a car. You need instruction to learn how to fly a plane. The is no substitute for formal instruction. This is the reason why we have medical schools. Otherwise, any yahoo would claim to be a doctor and more people would die from voodoo treatment.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Oct 28, 2010 0:25:15 GMT
I was going to address Midori's above comment about the drawing of a handgun being more natural. I indicated earlier that drawing a handgun is a complicated affair. Vincent picked up on this, too. The HG Draw--Open carry, strong side Preconditions: Non-drawing hand on chest or stomach, so that later in the draw the muzzle will not cover it. (1) Grip the stock of the weapon in the holster; trigger finger goes into the index position. (2) Push the weapon into the holster; this finalizes the grip; activate the retention release, if there is one. (3) Pull up clearing the holster [direction change] (4) At this point some schools teach cocking the wrist up and pointing the muzzle in the direction of the target [another direction change] (5a) if you are in a world of hurt and you've done (4), cant the weapon's slide slightly away from the body, and lock your forearm against your side ; one can place the trigger finger on trigger and shoot at this point; this is the point at which my son produced his fastest times; or, (5b) Bring the weapon to front/center near, (pointing weapon at target, if you've NOT done (4)), elbow bent at approx right angle; join the off-hand and weapon to complete the two handed grip (this requires a detailed discussion but not here); the weapon is far enough forward to shoot at this point, without the slide whacking one in the stomach or chest; it will not be sighted fire, but one can aim using other orienting factors (6) To finish the draw, if circumstances permit, extend (don't over extend) the weapon forward raising it up to your line of sight (7) Find front sight for sighted fire (8) When you cover your target, then you finger goes on the trigger (9) You are ready for sighted fire on your target This draw is for a semi-auto; proper trigger management for the revolver is a bit more complicated.
As you can see there are several discrete steps which require a directional change, a possible rotational change. Focusing on the front sight instead of the target is not natural. Resisting placing the trigger finger within the trigger guard must be learned. The immediacy of the threat will dictate sighted or unsighted fire.
Incorporating movement is the subject of advanced HG courses.
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Post by shoboshi on Oct 28, 2010 0:26:29 GMT
I just found this thread and here are my thoughts:
Personally, I find knife wounds far more gruesome to look at and deal with than bullet wounds.
At conversational distances, my pocket knife is my first line of defense, even if I'm packing.
I would never climb on a bear's back and try to stab him in the head. I would sooner climb a tree.
If someone with a knife moves toward me when he can see that I have a gun, there is no doubt or denying that he means to kill me.
In a life and death scenario, I'm not concerned with legalities. My family can get me out of jail, I can't get them out of coffins.
The man with a knife at a gunfight is at a severe disadvantage, but within 21 feet my money will be on the guy with the most formal training.
21 feet is way too close!
I can qualify as proficient at the range without proper training, that doesn't mean I can then go to the woods and feed myself or survive a grave situation on the street. Without proper training of the mind as well as body it is mainly luck that determines the victor and luck is a fickle mistress.
If you wouldn't go there without a gun, you shouldn't be going there with one.
One last thought, do you suppose that chickens think rubber humans are funny?
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 28, 2010 1:38:53 GMT
There are only 2 steps, not 9 steps. And there is only one direction/rotation change. Here is how I was taught by Black Water using this holster: www.blackhawk.com/product/SERPA- ... 5,1410.htm , or a friction-hold hoslter. This course is designed for civilian self-defense using a hand-gun. This portion of the training is for very close target. (1) Pull your hand up since it is already beneath the pistol, grip the the pistol and pull it out in one single motion. There is no need for pushing back in. As your hand gripping the pistol and pulling, the index finger automatic and naturally release the retention. The same is true of friction-hold hoslter. (2) As you pull out, rotate your hand, palm face up and fire. Again one single motion. This is the most natural biomechanical motion. This is how homo-sapien pick up any object -- palm face up. When a human pick up an object, automatically the palm face up and position it in front of the body. Everything is instinctual. All motions above are natural because we have done it a million times -- not with guns but with other objects. It is even easier and faster with friction-hold holster or drop-leg holster. Of course, this is for extremely close target. Orientation of the gun is sufficient for accuracy. The Black Water instructors said that many previously trained shooter have the tendency to try to bring the pistol all the way up to eye level before firing. Too late! Apparently that what your son did. Even when your son shoot at the hip, he performed many unnatural and unneeded motions. Why push the pistol back in the holster before pulling it out? Just yank it out. Why is there a need to search for the retention before pulling it out. The holster is specially designed to simply pull it out, the gripping motion will take care of the retention and everything else. Why cock the wrist? A motion of picking up an object is much more natural. With a sword. (1) You have to reach across the body ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE to grasp the tsuka with the right hand. (2) The left hand move up to grasp the saya. (3) Left thumb push at the tsuba to release the blade. (4) Right hand pull the blade straight out. (5) Left hand push the saya back past the hip. (6) Simutaneous step forward. (7) When blade is clear, cock your wrist and begin the cut. None of the motions are natural. Furthermore, Step 1 and 2 have to be perfectly coordinated. Step 4 and 5 have to be perfectly coordinated. Step 6 and 7 have to be perfectly coordinated.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 28, 2010 2:30:49 GMT
That was actually a bit of a joke between me and Hallmar about the sheer ridiculousness of the things portrayed in Hollywood movies.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Oct 28, 2010 3:44:33 GMT
This thread makes my soul hurt a little bit... That said, if you all want to see something really scary, you should see how fast our own ShooterMike can clear holster and put a couple rounds onto a target right in front of him... or how fast he can produce a knife that you did not even know he had. I would not mess with the man... for any reason. I'm in agreement with everything shoboshi said... except maybe that bit about rubber humans. WTF?
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Post by shoboshi on Oct 28, 2010 4:34:01 GMT
Sean, because, like you, so many of the things said here make me feel all wrong and the bit about the rubber humans was something that helped me keep it light instead of diving in headfirst simply because so many of the comments cut so close to home.
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Post by Maynar on Oct 28, 2010 5:00:36 GMT
I liked the rubber humans joke. +1 shoboshi-sama.
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Post by shoboshi on Oct 28, 2010 5:29:22 GMT
And I'll take that Brother Maynar! Thank you very much.
I'm going to send one right back at you for your dueling smilies pulling in their bellies.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Oct 28, 2010 5:36:58 GMT
Aye... I feel you. Levity appreciated. I guess I shoulda put a " " behind my "WTF" because that's how I meant it.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Oct 28, 2010 16:44:42 GMT
Talking about Mike, take a look to see how fast he draws a medieval sword. We're always talking about katana now but lets give the euros a chance too. Now I'm no expert but to me drawing a medieval sword seems much easier than a katana. You only need one hand, as the other hand doesn't have to grip the mouth of the scabbard and it's just a simple raising of the arm. I hope Mike chimes in on this one, he'll know about this "what's faster to draw" debate.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2010 17:25:57 GMT
I suppose that's a good point. If it's at night, you might be holding a flashlight or tactical light. But, then again, if I have time to pick up a flashlight, then I have time to unsheathe my sword (machete, etc). If you're walking to or from your car holding your sword, it's going to be sheathed (and probably in a sword bag) and holding it with one or both hands anyway. I was only interested in the time of a quick draw for both a gun and sword out of intellectual curiosity - not because I actually think that's a likely scenario you or I will find ourselves in. Edit: and not because I want to cause Sean to develop an ulcer either.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Oct 28, 2010 17:35:22 GMT
I'm deeply touched by your concern for my health... :lol:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2010 17:40:17 GMT
Well, since I started this thread, I feel partially responsible for anyone having an aneurysm or heart attack over the arguments...
Of course, if anyone here actually wants to test their positions with paintball guns and chalked iaido swords, then I'm not accepting any responsibility...unless I get waivers and an agreement to sell the video! :-D
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Post by Larry Jordan on Oct 28, 2010 18:20:47 GMT
Student,
Unless you do the (slight) push to finalize the grip, there will be a tendency to adjust the grip during the rest of draw. (I've seen this so many times over the past 15 years in handgun courses). This must be avoided. The push also places the web of the hand in the proper position on the backstrap to guarantee that the barrel axis is as low as possible in the hand, when the weapon is fired. This will facilitate shot recovery.
With your description of (2) unless you cock the wrist, you will be shooting into the dirt. The wrist cock is essential at this point, if you intend to shoot *immediately* after clearing leather. Locking the forearm in the side is necessary to stabilize the platform to permit an extended series of shots, since this shooting position is not supported by the off-hand.
The most natural palm orientation when shooting is palm down, not palm up. This is how we naturally point. (Because natural pointing is not fully palm down, Gabriel Suarez calls this "3/4 homie" and teaches this in his combat pistol courses for point shooting to take full advantage of "biomechanial motion.") One must exert effort to learn to rotate the slide away from the body (even if only slightly palm up), so that the slide will not strike the side and possibly fail to properly cycle.
The motions you describe with the sword are all continuous and very unlike the discontinuous (multi-directional--down, up, forward) articulations of the handgun draw.
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 28, 2010 20:39:43 GMT
Larry,
Your description is for regular shooting at 25 meters range, which accuracy is paramount. Hand to barrel allighment is very important for accurate shooting and faciliate shot recovery and lessen recoil. But at 5 feet, this is irrelevant. At extremely close range, all the motions you mentioned are completely unncessary. As I said before, the Black Water instructors had the most problem with experienced shooters rather than inexperienced. People who shoot for a long time want to aim -- even when aiming is not needed.
There is no difference in term of support with palm-up versus palm-down. The right forearms is still lock next to your body. There are three advantages in term of safety to the shooter. (1) With palm-up, your hand is automatically in from of your body, preventing you from shooting yourself. (2) With palm-up, you cannot possibly shoot down, prevent you from shooting your foot off. (3) With palm-up, barrel is away from from your body. With palm-down, if the pistol is next to your body, as the slide go back, it will slam straight into your body. The only direction you can shoot with palm up is right in front of you.
Cocking your wrist is neccessary if you are doing competition and have to fast draw and shoot at longer range at smaller targets. In that case, the level of accuraccy has to be much higher. An adult human torso at 5 feet cannot possibly be missed, regardless of how you grip the pistol.
The problem with fast draw, whether it is gun or sword is safety. The Black Water techniques remove all the unsafe factors in the draw.
We spent two days doing short range shooting and at no point did my pistol (or anyone else) fail to cycle. At no point did the shot went outside of the target. This is true for me as well as other people, many were inexperienced. As I have said before, the shot scattered widely throughout the target. If the target was farther, most of the shot would have missed. But at extreme close range, all the shot stay inside the target. The pistols we were trained on were not Glock but SIG P229. I have never seen this training anywhere else outside of Black Water. I did 7 years in the Army and I was never trained to shoot short range. It was the best pistol course I have taken. It is a course designed specifically for civilian.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 28, 2010 23:50:10 GMT
I've seen some of those vids. I am not about to try my luck with that man.
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