LiamBoyle
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Fechtmeister the Clueless of H.A.S.C.
Posts: 478
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 24, 2010 21:57:17 GMT
Depends on the state. Knife vs gun is still lethal force vs lethal force. This is where you have to be very aware of the laws in your area and if you lawyer doesn't know them - enlighten the lawyer.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 24, 2010 22:08:30 GMT
This I know. And in my state, lethal force is justifiable no matter where you are, however, you have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was a viable threat to your life, which is where that whole 'the cops are a-holes' thing comes into play; if a police officer doesn't back you up by verifying the 21 foot rule, the jury will only see it as murder.
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Post by bbhuang on Oct 25, 2010 8:59:31 GMT
It seems like this thread has become more about legalities and lethality of edged weapons than the practicality of swords.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 14:37:19 GMT
Well, if you can't use a sword or long knife in a defensive or combat context, then I don't think you can say they're practical for anything than a water bottle or tatami mat that's looking at you the wrong way. There is a survivalist thread, but swords are only a very small part of it. In most survival cases, a specific knife would be better suited for most jobs (e.g. cleaning game). For clearing brush like a machete, a sword would be fine, but a good machete is usualy less than $50 whereas a good sword (ie Musashi DH 1060) is no less than $70.
Outside of survival contexts, I think the most likely situations you would need a sword (or bayonet) would be if you're out of ammunition or can't use a firearm easily (inside an Afghanistan cave with rock walls or in a crowd of people).
Edit: Most people on this forum probably aren't going into combat with a sword anytime soon (though bayonets, yes), but they may have a sword in their home or carry them to and from home and practice/competition where a situation to use them may occur. However, the legality to use them in that context is a very real problem to think about.
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Post by bbhuang on Oct 25, 2010 15:20:46 GMT
I just meant it seemed like the thread was diverting away from the original question of practicality and moving more towards how lethal and how easily someone can be injured or killed with a sword.It seems a bit silly to argue about that. Just because edged weapons aren't widely used doesn't diminish their lethality and killing potential.
To determine the practicality of swords in the modern era it seems like it'd be important to first define what practical means by deciding what qualities make a weapon practical. Then see if swords meet those criteria. Rather than simply arguing weather guns or swords are better at killing people. (To me, that's what this thread was drifting towards)
Of course, lethality should be considered, but I imagine there's a number of other things to consider when determining the practicality of a weapon. Especially considering that it should be conceded that edged weapons can be lethal.
For example to determine practicality maybe these qualities should be analyzed: Ease of use (how easily could a lay person pick up the weapon?) Portability (conceal-ability? ability to transport?) Precision (ability to only damage the intended target)
Maybe others?
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Post by Larry Jordan on Oct 25, 2010 16:35:12 GMT
I agree with many of the objections about the practicality of the sword. The firearm is the superior weapon under most circumstances beyond the reach of the sword. People (civilians) would be better served by studying levels of awareness/defensive mindset as an adjunct to their choice of carry. However, it is an interesting subject to explore and I was curious about a handgunner and swordsman going head-to-head at 5-feet, a distance well within the reach of a sword.
I conducted a series of tests between handgun and sword at 5 feet using my son who has been through numerous HG and tactical carbine classes. He used a dummy pistol in various modes of carry (appendix carry, hip carry and behind the back carry). I used a padded 28" katana carried in the usual position. I initiated the attack, drawing the sword (no dematerializing saya!). He had to respond to my attack. No matter what mode of carry he used, I was able to draw and foul his draw every time. (I destroyed the arm/hand drawing the weapon.)
I tried going for the head, but he was not wearing headgear, so I pulled my cut considerably, slowing it down. I won the overwhelming majority when targeting the head. I was "tied" on some (bad for both of us). Not a true test until I can locate the head gear somewhere in my garage.
The foul-the-draw and followup with kessagiri was the most effective course.
Times: We weren't timing the engagements. We would have needed a third party. But I did time his raw draw speed to first shot (click) from various modes of carry:
Firearms: S&W M&P, Glock 23
1. S&W M&P in Blackhawk SERPA w/ retention. Hip carry. Sighted fire. Average: 1.28 seconds. Best: 0.9 seconds; Worst: 1.6 seconds. 2. (same as 1). Unsighted fire (just clear holster and cant). Average: 0.88 seconds. Best: 0.8 seconds; Worst: 1.0 seconds.
3. Glock in Galco paddle. Hip carry. Sighted fire. Average: 1.24 seconds. Best: 1.2 seconds. Worst: 1.3 seconds. 4. (same as 3). Unsighted fire (clear holster and cant). Average: 0.97 seconds; Best: 0.8 seconds; Worst: 1.1 seconds.
5. Glock in Kydex (no retention). Hip carry. Sighted fire. Average: 0.95 seconds; Best: 0.8 seconds; Worst: 1.1 seconds. (We did not try unsighted fire with this rig--he was getting tired.)
6. Glock in Galco IWB. Appendix carry. Unsighted fire. Average: 0.77 seconds; Best: 0.7 seconds; Worst: 0.8 seconds.
We did not bother with behind the back carry (dreadfully slow). The appendix carry with cant was the fastest (0.77 seconds). This draw is also the easiest to foul, since the hand and arm are right there in front presenting the closest target.
These are ideal times under the best possible circumstances. These times do not take into consideration the defender's evaluation and reaction time or startle response. I have not studied iaido but used the beginning series botoho from my shinkendo training. My draw and cut times are not great, but apparently good enough.
What's next? He's going to add movement to his draw, stepping back to increase the distance. I will have to compensate as well. We'll see if he can incorporate movement without adversely affecting the speed of his draw. (What I think he should do to counter the swordsman is attempt to foul his draw! We'll see what works.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 17:09:25 GMT
If you're inside, such as sitting across from each other in chairs like at a restaurant, then a padded wakizashi would be more appropriate. In that case, a behind the back holster would be really inconvenient for the shooter. Of course, I've never seen anyone at a restaurant with a wak before either...haha.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 17:12:37 GMT
Quick question: Was you son wearing a coat or jacket to conceal the gun holster or was it open carry?
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Post by Larry Jordan on Oct 25, 2010 20:03:54 GMT
Open carry. The test was configured to give each participant the quickest access to his weapon. Not sure how to conceal the katana. Since it is very hard to conceal a sword, I didn't force the handgunner to draw from concealment. It would place the handgunner in an even more precarious position. However, I plan to time his draw from concealment, so that he can see the time cost of the different modes of carry: (1) shirt over HG carried in appendix position (2) shirt or light jacket for strong side carry (3) belly-bag
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 26, 2010 7:39:05 GMT
Larry,
I have no idea how you conducted your test or if you are an Iaido practioner. There must be serious flaw with your test. I shoot regularly and I am also an Iaido practioner. There is no way (and I really mean no way) a katana can be drawn faster than a pistol -- exception made for great masters. The distance of which a katana have to go to be free of the saya is many times further than that of a pistol. For a 28 inches katana, your katana would have to move 28.5 inches before you can even begin your cut.
I am sure that many other iaidoka can testify to my statement that drawing a katana is the second most difficult aspect of Iaido (Noto, return the blade to the saya is the top). Making just one minor mistake, and your thumb is gone. For a person who is not an master of Iaido to outdraw a train pistoleto is highly improbable.
Sword is an impractical weapon because it is as dangerous to the user as the opponent. It is further impractical because it requires considerable training just to be proficient. I have done empty hand martial arts (Muay Thai and Kungfu) for many years before I started with sword. I have some knife training as well. Iaido is the most technically difficult thing I have done in my entire life. The ease of which you claim to have drawn your sword is simply not credible. There is a good reason why all the Iaido masters are old geezers. It took them a life time to master the arts.
I suggest this test. Use a real iaito (non-sharpen blade, zinc-aluminum is prefered) with a real saya. You don't have to be within reach of your opponent (i.e. your son). See if your katana can leave the saya before his gun leave the hoslter. To make it more interesting, drag a piece of color chalk across the fake sharp edge. See if the chalk is in your left hand after the draw. I will say with confidence that half of the time, you will cut yourself. You also will find that simply pushing the katana out of the saya with your thumb is actually a lot harder than it looks. A real katana fit very tightly to the saya, you need considerable force to free it from the saya.
In another word, let say I have to face my clone. I am armed with the katana that I am trained with on a regular basis. My clone is armed with a Glock 23, polymer blackhawk hoster. My clone would have shot me long before my katana is clear of the saya. Not because the clone is particularly fast, but because I would be slow. I said before and I say it again. Training someone to be proficient (not master, just proficient) with a gun is many time easier and faster than training someone to be proficient with a sword. And proficiency mean not cutting off your thumb in a draw. I have fast drawn my gun many times and felt completely safe. I am terrified everytime I draw my sword (the real one). And from the accounts of senior students in my dojo, it will take me many years to be able to draw my sword confidently. The more I train Iaido the more I realize what marvelous device a gun is.
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Post by Hyoujinsama on Oct 26, 2010 8:04:33 GMT
I don't want to get very involved in this thread. I just wanted to toss out a couple of corrections.
I can see the line of thought for this, however, the hand wouldn't extend farther than the opening of the koiguchi anyways due to how the hand rests on the saya and the fact that it is blocked by the tsuba. Once you press on the tsuba with your thumb, the hand should stay in (mainly) the same spot all throughout sayabiki.
It may be good, though, to do this and look at the inside of the saya for red marks. Many people cut away at their saya and don't even realize it.
Also wanted to say something about this. A well fit saya will indeed be a tight fit, but not so much that the habaki becomes difficult to dislodge from the koiguchi. If a tremendous amount of force is required, the fit is too tight. Many production swords are either too loose or too tight. The ideal fit would be tight enough to keep the blade from falling out if the sword was turned upside down, loose enough to dislodge with moderate pressure from the thumb.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 26, 2010 8:23:49 GMT
Student, I'm curious as to your seeming over reliance on iaido principles. Being a practitioner, you should know that iaido is a discipline and not true combat; it is also very controlled. In combat, as I'm sure you also know, you do whatever you can to stay alive, no matter how underhanded it is. There is a technique in ninjutsu, as well as regular kenjutsu, wherein you stop on opponent from drawing their sword by placing your hand on the kashira of their sword; doing so forces them to take a step backwards and unbalance themselves in order to draw. I bring this up because, in ninjutsu, there is a technique to counter it where you draw your blade sideways (that is, directly to your right instead of straight forward and across) and, in so doing, prevent your opponent from fouling your draw while slicing open their hand on your blade. Now, say you carried your blade in hand or on a 'tactical' sword baldric with a quick release. You could unsheathe the blade just a few inches and be able to cut an arm or a throat while using the sheath as a shield to foul their own draw, locking their arm in place while you draw the full length of your blade across their throat or chest. It is quick, efficient, and provides them no opportunity to draw their own weapon. Further, I am curious as to why you continue to insist that the sword is impractical because it is dangerous to the user and takes considerable training to become proficient. To paraphrase Midori's words: if you fear your blade, if you do not trust your blade, you have no business wielding it. Respect that it could kill you if taken by your opponent, but any weapon can do that. Trust your blade and do not fear it and it won't harm you unless taken from you. Next, becoming proficient in the sword does not take more than a few months even if you only devote a few hours at a time to it; I believe this comes from your training in iaido, but again, iaido is not for combat and is done with such unyielding precision that takes ages to perfect. If all you have to do is kill someone, well, you can learn that quick and easy enough and you can become proficient in the basics of swordsmanship very quickly. I have no formal training and yet I am clear on the basics and, while it ain't pretty, my swordsmanship will get the job done. Now, a question: how long does it take you, and you personally, to draw your pistol, aim, and fire? Can you do so in a fraction of a second? Because, unless I misremember, it takes about 1/8th of a second to perform a battougiri. Near the end of this clip is a prime example of a battougiri, even with a lunge, done in less than a second:
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Post by Kyodai on Oct 26, 2010 16:01:31 GMT
Gentlemen--
I must thank you for this discussion, and the fact that it's been a civil one. I have seen these degenerate rather quickly into something less.
I also appreciate the topic as a whole, as it means people are thinking about self defense in practical terms. Too few of our population does so these days.
I have a somewhat split stance on the subject, and must take the road of non-committal, as I am a student of both the gun and the blade. On one hand, I see that the physics of what the sword can do to a human has not changed. It IS a devastating weapon, and becomes moreso when wielded with proficiency. These were weapons with practicality in mind when they were created, and for the situations presented during the age. If they were impractical, the design would have changed (as it did many times, based on, once again, the situations being presented to the combatants.)
The creation of the firearm does not change the fact that the sword is a deadly, practical, devastating and highly effective weapon. What the firearm changed is the situation. Gone are the days of combat being a largely short-range encounter. The type of combat we face is different now, and the situation is that against a gun, the sword is less effective. This does not, however mean that the sword is a useless implement. It just means it's less ideal.
The gun is the weapon of the age. Therefore, I choose one as my primary tool for self defense. The shotgun is my home protection implement of choice. However, if I cannot reach one of my handguns for some reason, or the shotgun, I will reach for a blade, confident that it will do its job just as it had for hundreds of years before gunpowder. Is this less than perfect? Of course. But the best weapon for the situation is the one you have at hand. The key here is OPTIONS. I like having options, especially in a home defense situation. Cascading tiers of techniques and layers of defense, beginning with firearms, and ending with the empty hand, and I fully intend on continuing to train in the use of them all.
Best Regards,
Kyo
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 26, 2010 19:01:34 GMT
Your statements concerning Iaido are so errorneous that I have no idea where to begin. Where in the world did you get your information concerning Iaido? The whole "Iaido is not for combat" is the most absurd statement I have heard. I will address this later when I get home. I guess this is because you have no formal training.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Oct 26, 2010 20:16:32 GMT
Student, My practice partner (my son) is busy with school/(AIMS) testing this week, so I've not been able to complete my Sword vs. Gun test. I am still planning to time his draw from concealment and my draw speed for bokken from saya, and iaido from saya. I will post these numbers when they are available. I did conduct a search for similar testing. I present a link for first related find: Sword vs. Gun. The scenarios are a bit different. The distances between the two opponents tested are 6 feet and 3 feet, which presents different challenges for the swordsman (he's may have to step forward or step back). He also tests hands on and off weapons. The draws are simultaneous, not one responding to another, which would be more likely in a "practical" scenario. The raw times I posted represent the fastest possible draw. Most modes of typical carry (concealment under shirt or light jacket) will be slower. These times do not include the time it takes for the gunner to recognize the start of the [swordsman's] attack. This is not hollywood where the good guy can outdraw the bad guy, even if the bad guy draws first. Fractions of a second are critical. My suspicion from my initial testing is that whoever initiates strikes first.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Oct 26, 2010 20:45:05 GMT
1. I explained how I conducted my tests. 2. I also indicated than I am not a Iaido practioner--Shinkendo. 3. I train regularly (HG, tactical carbine, shotgun and precision rifle) at Tac Train with some students who are active military and police. At one point I calculated 200 classroom and field hours. That was many years ago and the real number is much higher. 4. The katana draw. This will show you how to effectively shorten the draw. The handgun draw movement is much more complex (discontinous and multi-directional) than the katana movement.
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Post by Hyoujinsama on Oct 26, 2010 23:55:15 GMT
Again, I don't want to become too involved in this thread...
...But please do not use Tres Tew and Expert Village as an example on how to perform nukiuchi. A good portion of what Tres Tew does with Japanese swords is very incorrect. I'm not saying this just because I'm a traditionalist. I'm saying this because a lot of what he says and does goes against the design of the sword itself and can very easily harm the user.
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 27, 2010 0:24:19 GMT
..... Like cutting the saya. That kid clearly cut his saya during nukiuchi -- both the overhand and the underhand. He did not even bother with sayabiki, which will safely increase the speed of drawing without the risk of cutting yourself. Luckily, the sword is not sharp. Underhand and overhand drawn are practiced in Iaido practice, but they are not faster than horizontal draw -- they simply cut at a different angle. The reason that kid could not drawn at horizontal because he fail to do sayabiki.
The video is more of what-not-to-do than what-to-do. There is nothing worse than learning via video from less than qualified instructor. A better video would be someone like Williams Sensei. If you want to see fast drawn, google "Isao Machii" in Stan Lee Super Human. He is the perhap the fastest katana drawer in the world.
Additional Warning: That kid in the video, his noto is dangerous as well. Has it been a real blade, he would have cut his fingers (thumbs and index). Even though he did noto in a vertical position, he still have to pinch the blade to find it. It is very clumsy. The best way to judge a person swordmanship in JSA is noto. Good noto = good swordman.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Oct 27, 2010 1:51:10 GMT
I appreciate Hyoujinsama's warning. As imperfectly executed the fellow's technique, nevertheless it (sayabiki) not only allows a longer sword to be drawn, but also effectively increases the speed of the draw. My point. A more conscientious search produced this: James Williams cutting a simulated handgunner in half: Bugei Tameshigiri. We all do not have to be a James Williams to get the job done. In the heat of battle the less than perfect draw, unless it disables the practitioner, will just have to do. We practice in the hope of rising to our level of training.
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 27, 2010 2:16:10 GMT
Larry,
Beyond the poorly executed technique mentioned, the Samurai Wannabe would not have survived a real combat situation. He telegraphed his move. He telegraphed his move long before he even touch the katana. Assuming that he did not splitted the saya and cut off his hand. Because he did not even bother to look at the direction of his opponent, if he had missed (which most likely), he would have loose his balance because he swing his katana without any control.
If you noticed in the Williams Sensei video, he is at least 3 to 4 times faster than the first samurai wannabe and did not telegraph his move. If you pay close attention to William Sensei's video, there are three seperate things he does: (1) Foot works (2) Right hand drawn (3) Left hand Sayabiki -- all perfectly coordinated. He makes it look easy; but I assure you it is not easy.
I have to disagree with you. Yes, you have to be William Sensei to get the job done. And it takes years to be anywhere near the level of William Sensei. And that man train full time. That is my whole point from the very beginning. At the rate I am going; and I trained 6 hours a week. I will take me about 10 years to get there. Only an extremely arrogant person can think he can learn the arts quickly.
If self-defense is your main and primary goal. The priorities are in this order (1) Firearms. (2) Empty Hand Combat. (3) Knife Combat and Improvised Weapons (table, chair, bottles...ect). (4) Swordmanship is the last thing if you have time to spare.
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