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Post by Dave Kelly on Nov 3, 2010 5:58:28 GMT
Saber  Dang, you look just like Errol. ( Took 20 years to teach the drunk how to fence. Don Juan is the only movie he made where he looks like he knows what to do with a sword, besides get martuni olives... ) |
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 3, 2010 15:07:08 GMT
If I'd read the caption more carefully, I would have seen that it does say "your specialty is the sabre."
Did you ever fence foil? I've known a few who fenced both weapons. But, I often wondered if it would be difficult keeping the two techniques compartmentalized. The newest "Sense and Sensibility" (BBC TV mini-series) features a duel between the characters Colonel Brandon and Willoughby where, although they are using small swords, are using some flavor of saber technique (parry in high octave). I wasn't sure if this was a conscious decision to have the character revert to a familiar technique inspite of the weapon, or a universal stage fencing technique being employed with small swords. It sounds like you may be able to speak to this point.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Nov 3, 2010 20:58:15 GMT
Historic fencing and sport fencing, as it came along in the early 20th Century differ. Modern sport fencing limited the target of the foil (smallsword) to the torso, and the only means of delivering a hit was with the point. There were no such historic constraints to combat, thus the range of defence and counters had to consider the whole person and the potential of a cut strike, most likely a draw cut rather than a slashing blow. The torso is a larger target to engage; but a head shot is more decisive. High Octave sounds like stage business. I never fenced foil. But I was in Germany 76-79 in Frankfurt, and got to meet Amilcare Angelini thru the american school system. He was a famous old Italian foil master of pre WWII days who banked his future on the facists and lost his shirt. The Americans were more generous to him than revived Germany, and he puttered around the Hesse fencing scene giving lessons where he could. Died in 1981. 70 years old and he gave 4-6 hours of fencing lessons a day. |
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 3, 2010 22:24:44 GMT
[Alfred] Sutton in his delightful little book "Cold Steel" shows a fighting (not sport) technique which appears to combine the guards and parries of foil and saber. He mentions high octave and dedicates a diagram thereto.
I'm surprised. My coach (UC Santa Barbara '71/'72) pushed foil first, then saber. I finally got around to saber four years ago when I took a 6-week refresher course at a local fencing school. I immediately saw the appeal.
I've forgotten the name of a saber technique used in the following scene from "The Mark of Zorro." It occurs near the end (@ approx 2:50) where Rathbone advances performing a few flourishes/moulinets in angle1/angle2. Do you recall the name?
Fred Cavens choreographed the fight scenes here and in "The Adventures of Robin Hood." Most of it is hacking, but there are some interesting beats, yielding parries, disengagements. Head and tails above "Princess Bride".
I would love to resume foil or even saber, if I could find a studio specializing in classical fencing, not sports fencing. I've not been able to find any here in the Valley of the Sun.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Nov 4, 2010 1:36:29 GMT
I'm a bit lost. If the fight scene in Sense and Sesibility is supposed to be a small sword exchange then the rules of the small sword apply and it would be very dangerous to use a technique of a heavier cut and thrust weapon against a small primarily thrust oriented weapon.
Eigth and Prime make some sense against a saber as you are rolling your blade into a position to block the attack with the intent of immediately following the parry with a wrist snapping head cut that your opponent, who is out of line and over committed to defend themselves against. Of course, if your opponent is faking and/or sensitive to his time and distance he has, by causing you to pull your blade into a very out of center defensive line opened you up for all sorts of nasty point attacks.
Single weapon immersion is against common method. But hey, it was New Joisey. D'youse gotta problem wid dat? :lol:
Mmmmm. Rathbone has Power stuck in a cramped corner that he really can't cut into. All I see is a meaningless triple moulinet done in a stationary position, followed by a simple advance step and a straight lunge.
The kill shot is very Italianate: a double disengage, counter double disengage into a thrust; e voila (ick).
For a stage saber fight I think the Stewart Granger/James Mason final encounter in Prisoner of Zenda is pretty cool. AS A SABER STYLED FIGHT. ( Most cool is still Ridley Scott's The Duellists. )
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 4, 2010 6:01:45 GMT
That's how it seemed to me, too. I was expecting a smallsword fight like in the first duel in The Duellists (Kietel against the mayor's nephew), but then they go at as if they are using sabers?! I complain every time my wife puts it on.
Was there anything remotely saber-oriented in this footage? Or was it confusion?
And what type of sabers are these lightweights? Simply stage weapons?
I own the other Granger movie--Scaramouche--with its 6+ minute foil-fight at the Ambigue (theatre).
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Post by Dave Kelly on Nov 4, 2010 9:47:21 GMT
My sense of the choreography is that it's a saber fight. It's a hollywood sword. The hilt is Solingen, but the blade was AFIE light. Fencers are holding air balls. skews technical representation.
:lol: That movie thrilled me as a kid. Finally read Sabatini and found out the movie was a miscast mongrel. Recently saw the movie again after many years. That fight scene is too awful to watch. Worse than the fencing in Captain Blood.
The opening duel in Jose Ferrar's Cyrano is still a favorite; a little too foil for rapier's but very stylish and credible.
This post script to collectibles has probably gone a bit afield. But most enjoyable.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 4, 2010 12:39:56 GMT
One last indulgence: I, too, was amazed by the movie (Scaramouche) as a kid. I wouldn't say that an intimate knowledge of foil has destroyed my ability to enjoy the movie, but, as I'm often reminded, no one else around me can.  Sabatini's original is a treasure trove of great language. Ferrar looked good on his feet. The duel starts at 6:02, but is preceded by the famous "Nose Speech." |
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Post by johnapsega on Nov 12, 2010 14:55:50 GMT
WOW that is very impressive.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2010 4:04:46 GMT
I don't know which is more impressive, the swords or the books. It must take a lot of self control not to hack up those mannequins after a couple of scotch's though... more than I have... Between you and Chuck you guys could outfit a small army. If he put a sidecar on his warhorse you two could raise some hell!  |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Dec 4, 2010 4:46:33 GMT
:lol: Considering what I've got invested in those mannekins, there's no way in heck I'm going to mistake them for pells.
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Post by deejay on Dec 4, 2010 19:50:18 GMT
When we sword people die-is this where we go?  ?I think so. |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Dec 5, 2010 1:38:20 GMT
Make sure you check the makers marks on the swords. It they say " BudK ", you're in the "other" place... :lol:
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2010 6:57:50 GMT
Wow what a great collection, and all those books, too. You rock, dude,
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Post by Maynar on Dec 7, 2010 4:50:24 GMT
LOL good one Dave. Can I call you Dave? "Sword God" kinda fits better...  Congrats on a great collection. |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Dec 7, 2010 6:59:52 GMT
Dave is probably more appropriate than Lucille. "Sword God" :roll: The swords are a hobby sort of consistent with the breadcrumb trail of my life. H/O trains wouldn't have worked. Glad you like my stuff. In the olden days I would have said, "my junk", but can't do that any more ... :shock: :lol: |
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Post by Major, Cory J on Dec 18, 2010 15:05:18 GMT
Man that collection makes me green with envy!
On a side note, after watching those youtube clips, now I have to go find those movies and watch them as I have never seen them before! (yes yes, I know, "Youngens!")
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Post by Sonny Suttles on Dec 19, 2010 13:46:19 GMT
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 30, 2011 0:30:22 GMT
2d Century AD ( Aurelian ) Roman Legionaire in Northern European Campaign Dress Most of the gear is from Deepeeka. There were a few items from Windlass. The leather subarmalis is made by Daniyal. So the Legionanaire is Indian for sure. I've gone a bit overboard here. The leather subarmalis is probably a bit rich for a line soldier; more appropriate for an officer. Daniyal also makes a linen, wool lined subarmalis suitable for a line soldier. The greaves are a toss up. They are more suitable to officers and cavalry, but there are some gravestones that hint other use. The pants and socks are also to be found on gravestones. Colonia Ulpia Traianus was a lousy place to be in January with just a tunic... :lol: From the east coast Armor Venue was the fastest way to get the shield and pilum. They have a distribution center in Northern VA. I got the subarmalis from them also. They had to ship it from New Dehli but it arrived in 5 days via DHL Express. ( Turned out KOA has the subs, but during the Xmas rush they hadn't put them on the web site. Of course they were $20 under Armor Venue. ) This was an eye opening exercise. Basic dress up of the mannikin of clothes and the subarmalis maybe took an hour. Arming the Legionnaire for battle, by myself, took a frustrating 3 1/2 hours. There are many reasons for this. The equipment is new and green. I hadn't done it before. The mannikin isn't as flexible as a human. The weight and fit of the armor. I can now see where a squad of soldier in a hurry to prepare for action would team up, with two comrades help dressing a third until everybody was ready for action.       |
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Post by Maynar on Jan 30, 2011 0:40:06 GMT
Wow. Just... wow. :shock:
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Sabatini's original is a treasure trove of great language.
?I think so.
