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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 0:50:48 GMT
I have noticed something; if a katana is not made in Japan (but is hand-forged with all of the goodies), then it is not considered nihonto. I agree with this statement. But, if you have a European sword made in America by a computer, (Albion) then they are considered "true" Euro swords and are the most historically accurate. They are not, by a LONG shot historically accurate. What gives?
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kurokaze
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Post by kurokaze on Jul 5, 2010 0:55:28 GMT
Tradition. Nihonto never stopped being forged along the same style in Japan, whereas the sword evolved radically in the West, before being discarded. Albions are simply the closest to a "true" medieval western sword that are available. Plus, Peter Johnsson is Swedish...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 1:01:17 GMT
...Plus, Peter Johnsson is Swedish... Doesn't matter. Their machines aren't.
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Post by sicheah on Jul 5, 2010 1:13:06 GMT
Albion are arguably historically accurate when it comes to sword handling. When it comes to other aspects, you will get a 20+ page discussion to nowhere followed by a thread locked.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 5, 2010 2:02:18 GMT
I wouldn't pull a hair for historical accuracy.
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kurokaze
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Post by kurokaze on Jul 5, 2010 2:03:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 2:30:15 GMT
They are not, by a LONG shot historically accurate. What gives you that idea? Theres a difference between being historically accurate and being made traditionally. Two completely identical swords are made, one by forging, one by stock removal. Is one less of a sword then the other because the end result was arrived at differently? As far as something not being a nihonto if it wasn't made in Japan. That was probably imposed by a strongly biased xenophobic way of Japanese thinking. The world generally accepts that the Japanese perfected the katana, and if Japan says "Its not truely a nihonto if its not made by Japanese" who's going to argue with them otherwise?
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kurokaze
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Post by kurokaze on Jul 5, 2010 2:42:45 GMT
That was probably imposed by a strongly biased xenophobic way of Japanese thinking. The world generally accepts that the Japanese perfected the katana, and if Japan says Its not truely a nihonto if its not made by Japanese who's going to argue with them otherwise? I agree, but also think ignorance plays a large role in this. A lot of westerners into martial arts are really quite unaware of what makes a sword functional. They think that only a sword made by a master Japanese smith could be real, and all Japanese antique blades are perfect. To loosely quote Hank Reinhardt in his book, they made crap back then too. [/quote]
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 3:59:57 GMT
Ignorance which is brought on by misinformation is the culprit.
Not every blade produced in Japan is a magical mystical work of art, nor is every Albion blade.
Some Chens are as historically accurate as anything made, same as Lundemo, same as, well you get the picture.
The terms are used rather loosely at times, and some tend to believe everything that they read or see.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 4:07:56 GMT
i think the biggest difference is nomenclature... historically accurate replica. and also to think that the western mind is somewhat different than the eastern. all i care is that it is truly functional.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 5, 2010 4:20:14 GMT
if a Canada goose is born in the USA is it still a Canada goose?
also do not forget the part sales hype and advertisement plays. after all if I market that Canada goose as an American goose and point out all the superiorities of the American Goose over the Canada goose and if I persist long enough and loud enough people will begine to believe me. once that happens someone else will believe me based on the fact that some other person whom they respect believes me or based on the fact that there seems to be a lot of people who believe me and I therefor must be right. the more believers I have the more easily I can sway the minds of more people. If I persist in this it isn't long before I can make a Goose anything I want and people will praise my work as being the most accurate goose possible and I can charge lots of money for my geese and I can raise my prices while lowering my quality little by little until things are quite different than they ought to be.
hey watta ya mean that's a duck, no sir that there is the finest goose available from any production company. it is more "goosely accurate than any other production goose anywhere"
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Jul 5, 2010 4:36:43 GMT
Feh. I've always found when it comes to historical accuracy that I couldn't give a rat's ass where it's made, so long as it looks relevant to the period I'm portraying. When I portrayed a landsknecht, none of the weapons I used were made in Germany, yet they were relevant to the time period, helped make the outfit work, and were suitable for stage combat . In short: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, for all intents and purposes, you have a duck. --Edward
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 4:38:16 GMT
all i care is that it is truly functional. Yes sir My tastes are too varied, and I am subject to flights of fancy far too often to be bothered by such constraints as "Historical Accuracy"
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 5, 2010 4:39:17 GMT
if a Canada goose is born in the USA is it still a Canada goose? Technically it's a Canadian/American goose.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 4:41:31 GMT
Are we seriously suggesting that a replica has to be made in it's historical geographic place to be called historically accurate? It's a replica for a reason.
This is just a poor comparison from the start. Japanese culture views the katana in a very different manner than a sword is viewed in western culture.
The way a katana was made has always been traditionally very important, so it's still viewed as important now. Japan never lost it's traditional heritage. That's an unbroken line.
The way in which a sword was made or where it came from was never that important in Europe. The final product was what mattered. Swords were imported and exported all over Europe. So obviously no one cared where it was made as long as that place was known for good blades. They would have imported from a non-European source as long as the blades were good.
What I'm saying is that place does not matter when it comes to European swords because there is no traditional association. Why would you now try to apply a concept here that has never historically existed. You can't take a Japanese tradition and apply to western culture. It doesn't fit at all.
This is also the case with the way in which swords are made. Stock removal has been used for a very long time. Albion's stock removal process just happens to be controlled by a computer. Is that a bad thing? No they aren't perfect, but they are very good.
To be truthful this whole concept is absurd. The word nihinto has nothing to do with historical accuracy. The two terms mean totally different things. the word nihinto implies tradition. "Historical accuracy" has nothing to do with tradition. Modern nihinto aren't historically accurate. They can be but they don't have to be because they aren't replicas. They are swords built in a continuing tradition that is not looking to recreate anything from a specific period. They are not "historical replicas" by any interpretation of the term.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 4:41:40 GMT
if a Canada goose is born in the USA is it still a Canada goose? Technically it's a Canadian/American goose. CanAm goose Mk1 Mod0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 5:11:51 GMT
Are we seriously suggesting that a replica has to be made in it's historical geographic place to be called historically accurate? It's a replica for a reason. This is just a poor comparison from the start. Japanese culture views the katana in a very different manner than a sword is viewed in western culture. The way a katana was made has always been traditionally very important, so it's still viewed as important now. Japan never lost it's traditional heritage. That's an unbroken line. The way in which a sword was made or where it came from was never that important in Europe. The final product was what mattered. Swords were imported and exported all over Europe. So obviously no one cared where it was made as long as that place was known for good blades. They would have imported from a non-European source as long as the blades were good. What I'm saying is that place does not matter when it comes to European swords because there is no traditional association. Why would you now try to apply a concept here that has never historically existed. You can't take a Japanese tradition and apply to western culture. It doesn't fit at all. This is also the case with the way in which swords are made. Stock removal has been used for a very long time. Albion's stock removal process just happens to be controlled by a computer. Is that a bad thing? No they aren't perfect, but they are very good. To be truthful this whole concept is absurd. The word nihinto has nothing to do with historical accuracy. The two terms mean totally different things. the word nihinto implies tradition. "Historical accuracy" has nothing to do with tradition. Modern nihinto aren't historically accurate. They can be but they don't have to be because they aren't replicas. They are swords built in a continuing tradition that is not looking to recreate anything from a specific period. They are not "historical replicas" by any interpretation of the term. Took the words right out of my mouth, and added quite a few as well. I think what we have here is a gross misunderstanding of what actually makes a sword historically accurate and the difference between a sword that performs very well and one that preforms very well in relation to the historical type it represents as far as Western swords are concerned. Eastern swords are different because those Japaneese made swords can cut through engine blocks....
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 5, 2010 5:13:10 GMT
Nathan C. has the right of it here, I think.
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kurokaze
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Post by kurokaze on Jul 5, 2010 5:31:35 GMT
Nathan C. has the right of it here, I think. Agreed completely. Also, I think It's important to add that western sword encompass quite a few different types of blades, spanning long stretches of time, up to the present day. You might even say that current replicas are historically accurate in the sense that they are part of our history with the sword (revival of interest, techniques, etc.) Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 13:40:57 GMT
Well, you are slacking if you can only cut an engine block. Any decent katana can, at the least, cut the whole car in two. And anyway, from what I have read about albion's quality, it seems to me that one of theirs would be something a medieval swordsman would kill for. Quality is quailty. Also while it is true a traditional japanese katana has to be made in japan, a "western" sword can really be made as far east as russia, and as far west as, well, russia and still be "western" in origin.A lot larger region is implied by western than by japanese. And america could be considered a historical extension of europe, as a good deal of the populace in north america is european in origin.
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