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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2010 18:59:39 GMT
/sigh
I can see that this is going to be argued until we're blue in the face.
I agree with Outside's points completely...control doesn't STOP people, what it does is stops people that would CASUALLY do harm to others. For example my automatic weapon comment. The only ones that have them are the real criminals (you're not going to stop someone with a real criminal determination). Given. But when Joe Blow snaps and decides to go ballistic in a McDonalds...at least he has to try to pull the trigger for every target, instead of just laying waste to the place. I'm sure more than a few lives have been saved due to that one, simple control.
It wasn't so long ago, in my state...that EVERYONE had to carry a gun in order to give pause to those that would harm them out of simple spite. It still didn't work so well...lots of people died, women and children as well (or perhaps in particular). We live in a more civilized time now...where you don't have to walk out of your house wondering if your neighbors will be trying to gun each other down (or you...because they like your wife, or car) from 10 paces. This is due to government control, like it or not. Would you really want to subject your family to living in that period of time? I'm sure some of you will say yes, thinking you're tough enough to protect them.
Only takes one bullet, and none of us are Superman.
It's kind of funny...this reminds me of a conversation I had with my Mother the other day. See, they've banned smoking in all public buildings in Arizona. In Tempe Arizona, you can't smoke in public AT ALL. She smokes heavily, and is ENRAGED that she's not allowed to smoke in a restaurant. She says the government doesn't have the right to tell a business owner he can't allow people to smoke in his establishment. I say, if it infringes on other people's rights, and in this case...their health, you shouldn't be allowed to do it. That's a basic tenet of our government system. Your rights are your rights, until they infringe on the rights of others. The same goes for noise control, and other issues as well. She agrees...except for in this instance...because it's her that's being directly affected.
There is no way to have your cake and eat it too. Either you want a society that is as safe as possible (key words there) for your kids to grow up in...which will REQUIRE some government control. Or you want anarchy. Some have already said they prefer anarchy. Good for them, they should move to Mexico...and they can have it. For myself, I will accept SOME government control...in order to eke out as much safety for my family as is possible (again...key words). No one is 100% safe, you can only do your best...and it's our responsibility AS A GROUP to do so. Allowing things like these lasers to go uncontrolled is irresponsible in the extreme imo.
By the way, much respect to everyone for keeping this discussion civil and unheated. It really has taken a political lean (in a manner of speaking), but keeping it on topic and respectful is key.
Well done.
Cris
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jun 19, 2010 19:23:33 GMT
I'll add to the mention of keeping level heads here. I just want to point out though that there is a big difference in my mind between actively participating in an in-depth conversation and arguing. I want to remind everyone that has read my posts that in no way am I doing so with anger towards anyone else no matter how much I might not agree. I have always enjoyed being a part of deep conversations that can stay fight free. too often have I seen a thread here that started out interesting and informative go over the top and then be shut down. thank you mods who might have seen this and not locked it. I've enjoyed this thread immensely and I for one can say that after I'm done I can certainly agree to disagree with a handshake and a cold one.
cheers!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 2:47:07 GMT
Then again, I think permits should be required for childbirth. Now THERE'S a dangerous object right there.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 3:08:56 GMT
quote>There is no way to have your cake and eat it too. Either you want a society that is as safe as possible (key words there) for your kids to grow up in...which will REQUIRE some government control. Some? Just some? Or, you know, we want a happy medium. We want there to be risks out there and bad decisions that are possible to make so as to learn from them. Either from making them ourselves or from watching someone else do so. We want to have kids able to make their own decisions rather than just obey orders handed down from on high by the government of people smarter and more perfect than us. We want to decide for ourselves what is fun and worth the risk/cost. And we want there to be penalties and consequences for making bad choices. There is none of any of that in "a society that is as safe as possible."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 3:12:29 GMT
Perhaps I should elaborate on my statement a bit more, as some seem to think this is a humorous debate....I personally, don't feel that I could possibly care less about what makes bad people do bad things, or furthermore, how they got that way... Pathology doesn't concern me or interest me I merely suggested it might be prudent to show some discretion and logic when selling a class 4 lazer to the public. Certain people have been fighting a war to achieve the same ends, which is basically keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people. Obviously some people have forgotten that truth....this will be the last time I post on this particular topic, as it is way too political for me, and since returning home I try to lead a simple and quiet life . Kudos to all for sharing their opinions! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 3:35:06 GMT
quote>There is no way to have your cake and eat it too. Either you want a society that is as safe as possible (key words there) for your kids to grow up in...which will REQUIRE some government control. Some? Just some? Or, you know, we want a happy medium. We want there to be risks out there and bad decisions that are possible to make so as to learn from them. Either from making them ourselves or from watching someone else do so. We want to have kids able to make their own decisions rather than just obey orders handed down from on high by the government of people smarter and more perfect than us. We want to decide for ourselves what is fun and worth the risk/cost. And we want there to be penalties and consequences for making bad choices. There is none of any of that in "a society that is as safe as possible." Yes, just some. Additionally...you seem to have taken my 'as safe as possible' comment a bit farther than I intended it. Perhaps it was my fault for not adding a qualifier or ten to it =D. What I meant was...a society where an innocent person driving down the freeway doesn't have the chance of being randomly blinded, burned, or chance possible damage to the paint of their car (another wonderful use for a laser this powerful) for accidentally cutting off a jackass who wants to go faster than they do...or simply failing to get out of his way. I think that it's getting to a point where commentary is willfully being taken out of context. I will say though...of course I want my kids to have consequences for their actions. When they act out of hand, they get spanked. My daughter is no longer spanked (12yrs old), but I'm sure that she'd tell you how the punishments we DO implement for any possible misbehavior are probably worse than a quick spanking and off she goes. If my kids throw rocks at someone elses car...the Lord have mercy on them...because I won't. If, when they're old enough...they mouth off to someone and it gets them a busted lip, well..next time they might not mouth off...lesson learned. If they BUST someones lip for mouthing off, depending on the consequences...so be it, lesson taught. I'm certainly not some tree hugging peace and love type (dude, I make SWORDS as a hobby, race CARS as a hobby, live in a county island in the middle of town so 'city government' leaves me alone, and until recently, owned a relatively succesful heavy underground construction company). I do however feel that it is my responsibility to ensure my wife and kids have a safe, and secure environment. If it takes governmental controls to facilitate this...I am, for the most part...for it. Perhaps I should elaborate on my statement a bit more, as some seem to think this is a humorous debate....I personally, don't feel that I could possibly care less about what makes bad people do bad things, or furthermore, how they got that way... Pathology doesn't concern me or interest me I merely suggested it might be prudent to show some discretion and logic when selling a class 4 lazer to the public. Certain people have been fighting a war to achieve the same ends, which is basically keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people. Obviously some people have forgotten that truth....this will be the last time I post on this particular topic, as it is way too political for me, and since returning home I try to lead a simple and quiet life . Kudos to all for sharing their opinions! ;D Agreed completely. And if by 'returned home' you mean from the service (in any country), my respects. The only thing that has kept me from the military is my family...and I have nothing but respect for those that take that extra step FOR my family. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 3:49:16 GMT
since this is not an undead equestrian event, let's stop flogging the dead horse shall we? No one is going to agree and the argument will continue to circle the drain. Lets just agree to disagree.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 4:28:38 GMT
Taran, much as I hate to agree with you, you are absolutely correct and I'm sure there is some politician scheming a way to go about that very thing. (Controlling or licensing breeding.) Before you know it, we'll be like China in the next 15 years, where the ratio of men to women will be so out of whack that the average man will be wondering what it's like to get a date with an UGLY woman.
Outside, I can agree with your last statement. Silencers SHOULD be legal. Try to remember that a law abiding, responsible citizen with a 250 round drum magazine for a fully automatic weapon is not a threat to anyone (emphasis on responsible). A criminal bent on doing harm with a single shot anything has one round too many.
Cris A, There are still people that wish to do harm to others out of simple spite. And as a former AZ resident who carried openly on most occassions, I do find it somewhat perplexing that anyone would advocate MORE government control of ANYTHING. Pretty much everything they have had a hand in has been screwed. Perhaps I should qualify that by saying that I do NOT believe it is the police dept's job to protect me and my family. It is mine. Police carry guns because they RESPOND to dangerous situations, but it is the citizen who is in that situation from the beginning. So who really needs the weapon more?
As a firefighter/EMT I have responded to numerous assaults by criminals. Sure, many of them were deliquents that may have deserved a good old fashioned ass kicking, but many were not. I also live on the border, literally a stones throw from Juarez, Mexico where they are killing people wholesale. I have picked up some of those people. (And for those that are against AZ's controversial new immigration law, guess who's paying for the treatment and transport of those people?) My point here is that criminals prefer unarmed victims and a citizen who takes responsibility for his own safety instead of relying on the govt/police, stands a much better chance of surviving or keeping his family safe. But that is just my opinion. (BTW, in Mexico it is illegal for the average 'citizen' to possess a firearm capable of chambering a round used by the military or police. Can you guess how little is left over?) You might also have heard recently about a 15 yr old kid that got shot and killed by the border patrol after throwing rocks at them. There have been a lot of protests about that. Haven't been too many about the 2000+ killings in the drug turf war (many of which have been carried out by mexican police or some other person in a position of authority.), or the 400+ women that have been raped, killed or missing in the last ten years, nor the kidnappings/rapings of countless south american 'immigrants' along the SOUTHERN mexican border, 60% of which were reported to have been perpetrated by 'authorities' in the region by their vicitims. (And if you think the violence isn't coming across the border, check out the history in Laredo, Tx. concerning the Zetas gang.)
A further point would be that maybe we should quit coddling our children and raise them to be responsible adults, with an actual fear of consequences, instead of worrying about their FEELINGS or rights and maybe they would respect other human beings and we could all live in peace. (I am not saying that the people on this forum do not raise their children properly, in fact, I think that this forum draws the sort of person that does. But lately, I see many more children that do not respect their parents and think of nothing but themselves and these are the future generations that will be raising their own generations. Sorry, but that scares me.)
And becase I want less govt control does not mean that I want anarchy. (I think the key words there are 'how much control'?) There must be some law. There is an in between. But do we really live in a more civilized time? Personally, I don't think so. Back in the wild west, people were accountable for their actions. If people were really held accountable for their actions these days, things would not be in the state they are.
I apologize for my rant, but this struck a nerve in me. I have children and I want them to grow up in peace and security and I see that further and further away. If I have offended anyone, you also have my apologies. I do not mean to offend, simply to state my position, and only used examples and names because they got me to thinking about something in particular.
As far as having to pull the trigger for each kill saving lives, I have to disagree. Bold statement? Yes. It is. But is isn't the illegality of fully automatic weapons saving lives, it is nothing more than the cost. Anyone with a clean record in the U.S. can get a fully auto weapon provided they have the MONEY to pay the TAX. Because that's all it is. Pay the tax and you get the full auto or the silencer. What exactly does that have to do with public safety?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 4:58:18 GMT
I was glad to see that this didn't evaporate into something that had to be locked. As for the product, many good points on both sides. Honestly, I don't see the need to provide this open market but idiots can find other easy ways to hurt people; not sure if we need to provide them with another though. That being said, if I had the extra cash, ya I would probably grab one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 5:32:03 GMT
Cris A, There are still people that wish to do harm to others out of simple spite. And as a former AZ resident who carried openly on most occassions, I do find it somewhat perplexing that anyone would advocate MORE government control of ANYTHING. Pretty much everything they have had a hand in has been screwed. Perhaps I should qualify that by saying that I do NOT believe it is the police dept's job to protect me and my family. It is mine. Police carry guns because they RESPOND to dangerous situations, but it is the citizen who is in that situation from the beginning. So who really needs the weapon more? Ok, now the discussion is changing around a good bit. I'm talking about the government regulating the sales of a freaking laser lol, NOT gun control, or MORE gun control, or anything else that limits my ability to protect my family in the case of home invasion etc. We OWN guns (a lot of them). Most of them have been in my family since my Dad was a kid, some longer. I grew up on a 192k acre cattle ranch...guns were a part of our daily life. I think I must be coming across wrong or something here. As a firefighter/EMT I have responded to numerous assaults by criminals. Sure, many of them were deliquents that may have deserved a good old fashioned ass kicking, but many were not. I also live on the border, literally a stones throw from Juarez, Mexico where they are killing people wholesale. I have picked up some of those people. (And for those that are against AZ's controversial new immigration law, guess who's paying for the treatment and transport of those people?) My point here is that criminals prefer unarmed victims and a citizen who takes responsibility for his own safety instead of relying on the govt/police, stands a much better chance of surviving or keeping his family safe. But that is just my opinion. (BTW, in Mexico it is illegal for the average 'citizen' to possess a firearm capable of chambering a round used by the military or police. Can you guess how little is left over?) You might also have heard recently about a 15 yr old kid that got shot and killed by the border patrol after throwing rocks at them. There have been a lot of protests about that. Haven't been too many about the 2000+ killings in the drug turf war (many of which have been carried out by mexican police or some other person in a position of authority.), or the 400+ women that have been raped, killed or missing in the last ten years, nor the kidnappings/rapings of countless south american 'immigrants' along the SOUTHERN mexican border, 60% of which were reported to have been perpetrated by 'authorities' in the region by their vicitims. (And if you think the violence isn't coming across the border, check out the history in Laredo, Tx. concerning the Zetas gang.) In 150% agreement here. It's good to see there are others that feel PRECISELY the same as I do. Illegal immigration is something that I won't get started on here...mostly because I feel so strongly about it. I drive my older son and my daughter to school (less than half a mile away)...because there have been kidnappings of SCHOOL AGE girls, perpetrated by illegal alien manned human smuggling rings based out of...you guessed it, Mexico. I'm sure you're well aware of this. A further point would be that maybe we should quit coddling our children and raise them to be responsible adults, with an actual fear of consequences, instead of worrying about their FEELINGS or rights and maybe they would respect other human beings and we could all live in peace. (I am not saying that the people on this forum do not raise their children properly, in fact, I think that this forum draws the sort of person that does. But lately, I see many more children that do not respect their parents and think of nothing but themselves and these are the future generations that will be raising their own generations. Sorry, but that scares me.) It doesn't scare me...it TERRIFIES me. My 12yr old daughter is a prime example. We live in a 'good' neighborhood. Her teacher last year was so useless (the one this year is only marginally better), and the kids so horrible...that she finally resorted to asking the children who was willing to learn, and taking those kids to the side for class while the other SIXTY percent of the kids did wtfe they wanted. I made them let me sit in on class for three days...it helped, a few kids responded, but the majority of the problem kids didn't care. They knew I had no power over them whatsoever. When I was a kid, an adult male was cause for pause in WHATEVER I was doing. Hell, ANYONE older than we were was cause for pause. I was chased home by bigger kids when I was in fifth grade repeatedly. Told my Dad, he told me 'stand up to them and they'll stop'. I did, got my rear kicked, gave back as well as I could, and got a pat on the head (huge praise btw...my Dad's pretty reserved) from my Dad when I entered the yard where he'd been watching to make sure it didn't get out of hand. He was right though by the way...they stopped. And becase I want less govt control does not mean that I want anarchy. (I think the key words there are 'how much control'?) There must be some law. There is an in between. But do we really live in a more civilized time? Personally, I don't think so. Back in the wild west, people were accountable for their actions. If people were really held accountable for their actions these days, things would not be in the state they are. I think we do live in a more civilized time...in general. Realize, I'm talking about suburban America here, not the world. However, the bad is still as bad...or worse. And yes, in the wild west, people WERE accountable for their actions...and many more were the victims of others actions. How many were raped, killed, burned off their land (ask me how we lost our ranch someday...it's an interesting story) because they didn't have the power to protect themselves against those with more firepower?? Your examples above of the border and South America are prime examples of that...only expanded to include the majority of the US. Again though...none of this has too much to do with keeping lasers that are all too powerful out of the hands of the general public. I apologize for my rant, but this struck a nerve in me. I have children and I want them to grow up in peace and security and I see that further and further away. If I have offended anyone, you also have my apologies. I do not mean to offend, simply to state my position, and only used examples and names because they got me to thinking about something in particular. No offense taken here. I really believe we're more on the same side than you would think. As far as having to pull the trigger for each kill saving lives, I have to disagree. Bold statement? Yes. It is. But is isn't the illegality of fully automatic weapons saving lives, it is nothing more than the cost. Anyone with a clean record in the U.S. can get a fully auto weapon provided they have the MONEY to pay the TAX. Because that's all it is. Pay the tax and you get the full auto or the silencer. What exactly does that have to do with public safety? I never realized there was a way to legally obtain automatic weapons in the US. Puts an interesting light on things for sure. Again though...automatic weapon...light saber...see where I'm going here? We can all say 'but if the government gets involved blah blah blah...', only, the fact is that it's the vast MINORITY of people who would have a legitimate use for something like this. Apply for a license to own it that requires you to state your intended usage (with documentation and/or proof to back it up), and voila, problem solved. Cris
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kurokaze
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Post by kurokaze on Jun 20, 2010 6:04:01 GMT
It wasn't so long ago, in my state...that EVERYONE had to carry a gun in order to give pause to those that would harm them out of simple spite. It still didn't work so well...lots of people died, women and children as well (or perhaps in particular). We live in a more civilized time now...where you don't have to walk out of your house wondering if your neighbors will be trying to gun each other down (or you...because they like your wife, or car) from 10 paces. Cris A VERY good point. That said, although I am glad things have gotten better in your part of the country, it does not seem that way here. I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I have heard gunfire down the street from my house followed by a police chopper overhead at night. I assure you it's not something I like hearing. Plus 1 for a very level headed line of reasoning.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jun 20, 2010 6:29:53 GMT
We can all say 'but if the government gets involved blah blah blah...', only, the fact is that it's the vast MINORITY of people who would have a legitimate use for something like this. Apply for a license to own it that requires you to state your intended usage (with documentation and/or proof to back it up), and voila, problem solved. Cris do you really believe that it's that simple? again, people without permits get guns if they want them. they will get lasers with or without permits. the 15 year old son of the licensed scientist will get his hands on his dads laser and blind someone. we can't stop them from being invented or manufactured, they are obviously here and real, the only thing setting restrictions will do is make it easier to accept further restrictions on many more things until we give up all control. what's the British saying? in for a penny in for a pound(I think) well, I think it has relevance here. it seems like it would be easy to think that we would have the option to say when it shouldn't be up to others, but with their foot in the door, it will only be a matter of time before it's followed by their leg and then.........well you get the point. you also cannot stop the evolution of science, there will be things much worse than laser pointers in the years to come. face it, there will always be things available to people who could misuse them, the point again is that we don't have to make it any easier for the powers that be to climb one more rung towards taking total control. one shouldn't assume that if these lasers were to be restricted that it was because it was your decision and because you thought it was the right thing to do and that eventually someone wouldn't make a decision for you that you didn't agree with. how far away is this from censorship. take cable tv, with safe guards like parental control features in place it is only up to you to protect your kids from what they might be exposed to. sure the FCC and other like factions have the say in what could be harmful to ourselves and our kids and do their best to enforce restrictions but there are still things that get through that we consider harmful. at the same time we scratch our heads trying to figure out why they also restricted your favorite programs or movies that you didn't see as harmful. "well that doesn't make sense, why did they do that? they shouldn't have the ability to restrict that show, I like that one!" someone could potentially be harmed in their own living room all the way from Europe, China or Guam. does anyone see my point? it's not about the dangerous laser
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 7:06:21 GMT
It wasn't so long ago, in my state...that EVERYONE had to carry a gun in order to give pause to those that would harm them out of simple spite. It still didn't work so well...lots of people died, women and children as well (or perhaps in particular). We live in a more civilized time now...where you don't have to walk out of your house wondering if your neighbors will be trying to gun each other down (or you...because they like your wife, or car) from 10 paces. Cris A VERY good point. That said, although I am glad things have gotten better in your part of the country, it does not seem that way here. I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I have heard gunfire down the street from my house followed by a police chopper overhead at night. I assure you it's not something I like hearing. Plus 1 for a very level headed line of reasoning. Thanks man, just saying how I feel though (or trying lol...not sure how successful I've been in explaining myself). By the way...it's not like it's universal peace. Just a few miles from my house my ex inlaws have bullet holes in their front walls from the kidnapping/shootout in the house across the street from them. Was a ring of illegals btw =/. There's parts of Phoenix you just don't go to...period. I've done neighborhood sewer/water main replacements in those areas, and part of the bid is for off duty police to accompany the crews. What's sad is that it's only the predominately Hispanic neighborhoods that are this way. Not racism btw...just an observation based on extensive experience =(. Anyhow though...gun control, illegal immigration, domestic violence, postal worker's syndrome, and the like...all have zero to do with pseudo light sabers on the open market lol. Just trying to keep things on topic =D. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 15:39:33 GMT
Additionally...you seem to have taken my 'as safe as possible' comment a bit farther than I intended it. Perhaps it was my fault for not adding a qualifier or ten to it =D. What I meant was...a society where an innocent person driving down the freeway doesn't have the chance of being randomly blinded, burned, or chance possible damage to the paint of their car (another wonderful use for a laser this powerful) for accidentally cutting off a jackass who wants to go faster than they do...or simply failing to get out of his way. Yes, because it's so much different from getting shot by some idiot with an illegal firearm for cutting him off or flashing your brights at him or honking at him or... That problem exists despite all the efforts to eliminate it. A laser isn't any change to it. The government strong enough to give you what you want is strong enough to take what you have. There are very specific things within the scope of government. This isn't one of them. Certain people have been fighting a war to achieve the same ends, which is basically keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people. We're not talking about "Sharks with frickin lasers!" here. There's a touch of difference between a handheld laser and a nuclear, chemical or biological weapon. Anyhow though...gun control, illegal immigration, domestic violence, postal worker's syndrome, and the like...all have zero to do with pseudo light sabers on the open market lol. Just trying to keep things on topic =D. Cris Except that gun control and censorship is exactly what you are advocating here. It may be targeted at a laser, but it's exactly the same thing. Go read the Brady Campaign website. You're making exactly the same arguments. Go read the articles supporting "Net Neutrality." Exactly the same arguments. Censorship, again, the same arguments. They are wrong in all applications, in all cases.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 15:47:35 GMT
Taran, much as I hate to agree with you, you are absolutely correct and I'm sure there is some politician scheming a way to go about that very thing. (Controlling or licensing breeding.) You're sure, because you're right. Do some research into the history of "Progressives." They are terrifying people.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 15:48:53 GMT
Cris, Your response to my last post was well put. I think we do agree on most things. Probably 95% or more.
Again, I apologize for going off on a rant, but these are things that I feel strongly about and sometimes you just have to let it out.
I will have to respectfully disagree with you that restriction of these lasers is not related to gun control, immigration. Like Frank said, it introduces yet another govt control into our lives. An authority telling you what you can and cannot do. Look at what the Federal govt is trying to do with Az's 'immigration' law. You have a problem, you are trying to fix it and the govt is exploring options to bend you over.
I can't think of a legitimate reason for me to have one of these lasers but if I did have one, I would use it responsibly and would not want anyone telling me why I couldn't have one. Again, like Frank said, if these things were regulated, those who would use them incorrectly would find a way to get them, legally or illegally. And I don't think we need yet another law imposed on the law abiding, further reducing their freedoms, in an effort to control those who do not respect the law.
I think we need to be less concerned with control and more focused on punishments that will actually deter someone from commiting a crime.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 16:03:56 GMT
Just a point that was brought up on another site: Like zip-guns, the parts are out there. Anyone with a little know-how can make one of these lasers for less than the price of buying one. So the purpose of restricting them would be...?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 16:53:12 GMT
¨I aim to misbehave¨....Capt. Malcolm Reynolds of the Serenity
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 16:58:28 GMT
I'll settle for 18 yrs or older to purchase. I think that would be satsifactory. For the record, the assault weapons ban, last time I checked, expired and was not renewed. You can by a fully automatic weapon but you do need a special kind of permit. Don't know the exact details, I haven't done the research but you can check it out for yourself. For the record, most gun related crimes are commited by people who are low income who bought a low grade 9mm off the street illegally. Not the guy who spent thousands of dollars on a high quality weapon and followed the law to get the proper permits. Now I'm sure in the ultra rare cases the guy with the permit has commited the crime but it isn't the norm at all. As far as high powered lasers well asl ong as it is 18 yrs or older, like swords and knives, I don't see a problem. I don't think they require registration, that's just silly. Oh all of you in your arguments for more government control, I find it funny you never seem to make a distinction between state and federal. Also all civilized socities have some form of law enforcement in one regards or another. However some of you are just ridicious and for the record, second hand smoking is a lie. I won't get into that though. Wouldn't want to turn this into one of those political threads that ends up in the graveyard .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2010 20:48:46 GMT
Alright...let me try this again.
I do see your points, and I do agree completely, in theory...with one thing that was said...
More punishment, less control. Other than one thing...
Law enforcement, on the average, is less effective than we like to admit. Good at giving tickets, I'll grant that, but for actual 'law enforcement'...I've found them sadly lacking over the years. This is ALL from my personal experience, and I'll even give you a recent example. About a month ago, my wife went to Tucson to attend her oldest brother's wedding. Her family and I do NOT get along (other than her oldest brother). The things they've done to her in her life should be...and in some cases ARE illegal. Long story there. Anyhow, she stayed one night, I went to pick her up the next day at her Mother's house. She was a bit late getting back there from the reception dinner, so I waited. The first car to get there wasn't hers. It had her two middle brothers and some of their friends. The brothers got out and proceeded to tell me to get off the duplex parking area and onto the street (which would have made my wife have to walk a hundred or so feet to the car). I ignored them, as it wasn't something they would have the right to do anyhow...and I wasn't going to accomodate them, or put my wife out. Realize, I didn't antagonize, I didn't say a word, simply ignored them.
So they proceeded to begin beating on the car, windows, etc.
Rather than escalate the problem, terrify my kids even worse, or the like...I simply called the police. Took them 15 minutes to get there (pretty fast response for Tucson), during which time they proceeded to kick the bumpers, slam their heads into and punch the drivers window...etc. My wife, and her mother arrived during that time also. Her mother went inside like nothing was happening, and her brothers ignored her demanding they stop. Additionally, the dispatch woman told me not to leave.
Long story short, the cops got there, the mom told the cops nothing happened, as did the brothers. The cops determined that since it was MY word against theirs (didn't matter what my wife said apparently...nor the head, hand, and foot prints all over my car, nor my crying toddlers saying 'Johnny going to hurt me!'), there was nothing they could do. My children (even my 12yr old), were not credible witnesses. Being on the phone with the dispatch lady the whole time did nothing. I requested their superviser come out...which was nothing but a waste of MY time. He backed the officers.
Sorry folks, these aren't the people I want determining if me being blinded by some idiot with a laser pointer was a crime or not. I have since fixed the issue with her two middle brothers. A parking lot, a challenge, and an alibi do wonders for attitude adjustment. I'm 90% sure they've learned their lessons. Only thing that will drive it home more is a hospital stay rather than a visit to the emergency room =/. Sad that I had to go through that to do what the police should have done in the first place. It wasn't pleasant...you don't walk away from a fight with two guys who are both taller than you...and one outweighing you by 40lbs, without a scratch, whether you won or not. Funny thing is, I broke the law without punishment too. Which is pretty pathetic.
Which brings me to my last point here. Regulating these lasers will NOT keep them out of a determined person's hands. I agree COMPLETELY. It won't keep them out of criminal hands. It won't keep them out of terrorist hands. Last I noticed though, most 18-35yr old jackasses aren't very determined, aren't criminals (for the most part), and aren't terrorists. It's the casual usage that I'd want controlled...which as you've all pointed out (and I understood from the beginning anyhow), is about all that those government controls are good for.
I wonder what would have happened if one of her brothers had an undocumented laser of this power during the 20 total minutes before the police arrived? The younger/bigger one is a star wars nut, and I guarantee he would have had no qualms using it...KNOWING there was no way to prove he did it. However, if he had one, and it was documented...well, then it could be proven that the damage was done by him couldn't it? Kinda makes you think.
More enforcement/less control is great in theory...much like governmental control is...as you've all said. So what is the actual solution? Revert to a day when my only recourse would have been to shoot them both??
Cris
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