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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2008 12:32:02 GMT
Yes, I never mentioned that part in my post but I agree with you on that, of course some people are born with better muscles, as some are born with better brains.
This I won't argue with you about as I have no knowledge about it.
There are many people that disagree with this, many believe that you in fact CAN change the ratio of the fibers yourself, which I to believe. The people that disagree is scientists and the people that say otherwise is athletes and bodybuilders.
Another similar thing is that scientist say that you can't change the way your muscles look, but personal trainers think, and say that it's otherwise.
Yes squats is a great way of increasing your speed to a certain point. But It's only good to a certain weight, if you have more muscle mass than you need you are only walking around with extra weight.
This is another interesting point, I think that training is more deciding than genes once again. And I think that the way you use your muscles when you grow will be a big factor of how your muscles turn out when you stop growing.
But when bodybuilding at high levels of course genes is a big factor, the one with the more "bulky" genes will grow bulkier faster than the one with "lean" genes when lifting heavy. But in the end, both will be bulky as the genes only decide to a certain point.
My grandfather is a big man with wrists thick as lumber, and my father who is half finish is a lot broader over the shoulders than my grandfather. And my mothers father is pretty strong man to.
So according to you and many other Tsafa I will become a really bulky guy. But I do not think so, not if I will stick to the training which I have planed.
But in 5 years we will see who is right ;D.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2008 13:58:40 GMT
Yeah, it sounds like you have a lot of bulky men in your family, so it is likely you will turn out that way too.
I have read a report on what you said about some of the fibers changing from Red to white from training. Scientists are not fully settled on that. It is very hard for them to follow that kind of thing, because they would have to look specifically at people before they train and then after they have been training for some period of time. In the past if would have involved cutting them open to look. Now they would have to puncture a hole with a scope. I don't think it would show up on MRI's. I also don't think that there is enough interest to do this sort of testing and experimenting on a large scale.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2008 21:44:29 GMT
In my younger days I was (still am) more of a fan of Olympic style weight lifting. When you can put a weight over your head you are using your whole body to lift it (shoulders, back, arms, legs) and it developes better "usable strength" than just the usual "power lifting" regime. IMHO shoulder strength is the key to feeling strong and should not be ignored.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2008 23:27:29 GMT
mogur: Aye there is a big difference between bodybuilding and strength training for weight lifting. Bodybuilding is not about how much you can lift but how much mass you have, and weight lifting is essentially about to have as much strength as possible but not increase your body weight.
My mate who was/is a serious bodybuilder for 2 years started with weight lifting 1 year ago and he was amazed at the difference in training for the two. As I have not had the pleasure to train with him I know little about the difference. But one thing that my friend did was a sort of reverse bench exercise. Instead of dropping the bar and then pushing it up again he used more weight than he would when doing normal bench and just let the bar go down but slow then a friend helped him to push the bar up again etc.
And he said that he increased his strength a lot, and a lot faster then he did before when he was bodybuilding. Another funny thing is that his trainer has won many world championships in weightlifting, he did 250+kilo bench press while having the weight of 68 kilograms when he was younger - that is scary :E.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 2:01:29 GMT
I have read a report on what you said about some of the fibers changing from Red to white from training. Scientists are not fully settled on that. It is very hard for them to follow that kind of thing, because they would have to look specifically at people before they train and then after they have been training for some period of time. In the past if would have involved cutting them open to look. Now they would have to puncture a hole with a scope. I don't think it would show up on MRI's. I also don't think that there is enough interest to do this sort of testing and experimenting on a large scale. In animal models (and some human injury models that I can remember) fiber shift occurs but it is a very small effect, not something really worth worrying about for training... more effort should be put on determining what training style works for the individual.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 4:06:50 GMT
Sorry mate, going to disagree with you here, squats are excellent for speed no matter what size you are. As Tsafa said the explosive speed you get from squats is very decisive. I personally don't do weights just because they have never really done anything for me, not that I will bulk up because I got my dad's genes and you can be very strong without having much bulk. I rely on my speed and my speed generates power at the same time. More muscle mass than you need? You have the muscle weight that your body dictates, there is not a case of having more muscle mass than you need. Muscle is good full stop and learning how to use that muscle is more important than building it. One of my friends is heavily built and I am now teaching him to use his strength and how his strength translates to speed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 10:05:13 GMT
Bloodwraith: I think you misunderstood, and I think I explained wrong to. Doing squats with only your bodyweight or some extra kgs weight on that is the way that I think is good. I meant doing squats with an extra 50kg+, that will give you very strong but unnecessary muscles unless you are working as a plowing horse.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 10:18:18 GMT
Actually I understood what you meant mate, I still don't think that any muscle is unecessary, when all of your muscles are strong and work in harmony you can be amazingly quick and amazingly strong. Even thin wiry guys can be stronger than a big muscled guy if they use them correctly. I don't fear bigger guys who build their muscles, because in the end it isn't about muscle.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 11:13:20 GMT
Ok bloodwraith, show me evidence of a skinny guy squatting and deadlifting 1000lbs. Just kidding! I know where you're coming from - posture, skill/technique and neurological efficiency are all very important factors in the application of strength, especially in martial arts. Strength is probably a very important factor in speed training - developing the fast twitch muscle fibres which are partly responsible for speed. It is also going to be important to train for speed, however, as adaptations are quite specific to the velocity and body orientation of the task. I thought this paper was cool - I haven't seen much on speed training. jp.physoc.org/cgi/content/full/513/1/295
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 12:48:40 GMT
Actually I understood what you meant mate, I still don't think that any muscle is unecessary, when all of your muscles are strong and work in harmony you can be amazingly quick and amazingly strong. Even thin wiry guys can be stronger than a big muscled guy if they use them correctly. I don't fear bigger guys who build their muscles, because in the end it isn't about muscle. I don't disagree with your statement about thin guys being able to be strong. But Ronny Coleman(MR universe) is not a great Marathon runner, in fact I think I would outrun him in 60 and 100 meters as well. You see you only need a certain strength for certain things. Animals gets their strength trough their genes, the body of a lion knows how much muscle mass it should produce. A lion don't need to work out to obtain it's muscles but with humans it's different. Our body only produces as much muscles as we need, compare bodybuilder to non-sporting office-man. The reason to this is many factors, first muscles cost a lot of energy so our body only make as much muscles as we need. Big muscles also encumber the person, Ronny Coleman would not make a good kung fu practitioner. Look at kendo practitioners, fencers. You rarely see a big-muscled guy in those martial arts, because first you don't need big muscles for these sports, you need speed and agility you only need muscles that can handle your bodyweight + gear, you don't need to be able to bench 100kg in the bench press or do squats with 50kilos on your back. Second, a big bulky guy is not near as agile or fast as a slender guy. So Tsafa(and I'm not trying to offend you, just as an example) does not have the ideal body for rapier fencing or kendo. A leaner guy with smaller muscles will always be faster. But when fighting with heavy armor and wielding a big mace or claymore or a shield and one-hander Tsafa will be superior to the lean guy. Summary - Unnecessary muscles are only in the way, does not good and encumbers the person. A 80 year old lady that only takes her car to the super mall at Sundays does not need a hemi v8. Don't believe me? Talk to your martial arts master/trainer and he will confirm.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 15:19:52 GMT
Yeah but Mr Universe probably couldn't fight or run his way out of a paper bag. If you are an all rounder you train your body to work muscle groups. A big guy can be just as agile as a little guy if he trains right. Tsafa may not have the ideal body (whatever that means) but I have seen some of what he does and I would not wish to face him when he has a weapon in his hands. Unarmed I might have a chance, with tsafa with his rapier or his shield and sword I think it would be a close run thing. Tsafa however has more going for him then just body weight, he trains his muscles properly. A lion is a very big creature but fast and agile, a human can do much the same. Also you'd do well not to stereotype, I've known some lean guys who would quite likely mop the floor with tsafa. I think Tsafa would be very good at kendo because he has stamina and muscle and he has trained his muscles for explosive speed which is what you need in kendo. You also need really good strong legs for kendo.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 16:52:21 GMT
Yes u say it yourself, an all rounder trains to be as good as possible at different things. But he is never best at many things. There is a saying that is something like this "a jack of all trades but master of none". A guy that trains only for rapier fencing will be superior to the guy that trains other martial arts as well. Specialization wins!
Absolutely not! It's just plain physics, a lion is incredible agile and fast but compared to a cat the lion is like an elephant. Same thing with humans.
What I mean by ideal body is a body that is shaped/trained for a single purpose. A guy that only does rapier fencing does not need big muscles. Lets say Chopchop who practices the Japanese sword is a lean guy, he has no need for muscles that can handle 50kg on his back while sparring/training - same thing with rapier fencing.
Tsafa is surely a great rapier fencer, I do not question that. And I would probably run away facing him in any situation with or without a weapon.
Yes I am sure you do but I am not arguing against you on that, more the opposite - having more muscles than you need is simply having more muscles than you need. Bruce Lee would probably kick the semprini out of Ronny Coleman.
I am sure Tsafa would be good at kendo but I am not talking about the ability of the person but the efficiency of muscles and that you only need enough muscles to complete the job. If you compare me to Japanese kendo masters I would look like a bodybuilder compared to many of them. The are really lean, the have enough muscles to handle what they do. Big muscles does not equal speed and does not necessarily equal explosiveness.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 17:48:45 GMT
Big doesn't HAVE to mean slow. Ever watch Sumo? I'm not idolizing them but those guys are tremendously fast for their size. The same can also be said for a football lineman. There are different kinds of speed. No, they can't run fast, but they're reaction speed and short distance moves are quite quick. This can be trained for with specific excercises such as power-pulls where you are moving a weight as fast as possible.
I believe those are called "negative reps" and yes theyare quite effective. Unfortunately, I usually didn't have a workout partner so I wasn't able to take advantage of this. One more reason to work out with someone. You get many benefits, including the added incentive of trying to work "harder" than him! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 19:05:20 GMT
Aye, working out with a partner is a lot more effective then working out alone. With a person helping you can squeeze out a few more reps and so build muscles faster.
Yes of course, big does not necessarily mean slow I agree. I watch Sumo from time to time and yes they are fast. But if a person with a small frame would do sumo, he would be faster.
Watch a flyweight boxing match then a heavyweight match and compare, the difference in speed is tremendous.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2008 19:07:25 GMT
In animal models (and some human injury models that I can remember) fiber shift occurs but it is a very small effect, not something really worth worrying about for training... more effort should be put on determining what training style works for the individual. Yes, a small effect is what I recall reading too. Not stereotyping is good policy in fighting. I have come across every oddball combination of size, shape and speed and have often seen things I did not expect. Performance is really a combination of technique, genetics and physical conditioning. You really can't just look at one aspect of a persons attributes and make any reliable assumption of how they would perform. You have to watch that person fight a few different people and then reverse engineer from there. First look at his technique because that is where most of the flaws will be for people who have been fighting for less then two of three years. That means two or three years of sparring twice a week. If the person has good techniques then we can look at strategy. How is his opponent fighting and is our subject using the best strategy against him. Is his opponent defensive, offensive, does he move around a lot, does he conserve his energy, what weapons does he use and what are the inherent advantages and disadvantages of those weapons. Then consider other aspects of his training like endurance and strength. These are factors that will help determine what options a fighter has. I person who is not particular strong should not try pushing his opponent around or weapon hooks and grapples. A stronger person has this as an option. A person who does not have a lot of endurance should not be jumping around as much. Regardless of strong, weak, high endurance or no endurance a person can still fight effectively with they stay within there limits. Increasing your strength and endurance does however open up additional options. Once a person opens up additional options they still must train to use that option effectively. You can have all the endurance in the world and it will do you no good if your opponent keeps getting one shot kills on you. You can have all the strength in the world and it would do much good, if you can't get your weapon on target. You can even have the best technique but it would do you much good if you don't time it right or have a good sense of distance. So there is a lot of factors that are important in fighting. You must figure out through experience how to make your attributes work for you. I'll give you a very interesting example that I have found to be common among other athletes. After 20 years of strength training I am very settled in how I train and I know where my genetic limits are. In video that you saw of my squatting, 405 of 5 reps, is as strong as I get. I can peak up to 455 but I can't hold that level for more then a few weeks. I was at that 15 years ago but I was not fencing at the time. Through fencing I have made that those same muscles faster at the same strength level. So you can fine tune strength to be fast with training. The weight training creates builds and maintains strength, the fencing training then makes those muscles fast. It is interesting that when I started fencing I was fast on my feet to begin with because of the heavy squats, but then I was able to get even faster with through fencing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2008 8:08:18 GMT
Well said all round, tsafa.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 1, 2008 0:40:40 GMT
Ok bloodwraith, show me evidence of a skinny guy squatting and deadlifting 1000lbs. I've got this one wrapped up: Janne Virtannen - Worlds Strongest Man Overall Champion 2000. Well known and ridiculed for his skinny legs. He's perfectly able to squat the odd 1000lb. Compare Janne's legs to 4 times World's Strongest Man - Mariusz Pudzianowski.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2008 0:51:19 GMT
lol, good pics Brenno.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 1, 2008 3:29:16 GMT
Yeah, Janne has the thinnest legs of any strength athlete you'll see, not helped by his 2 metre height. He gets picked at for it, but he delivers the goods - as I said 2000 overall Worlds Strongest Man Champion. So yeah, he can squat 1000lb! So it shows that strength and bulk are only losely corelated. BTW Incase you're wondering, NO Mariusz is not on 'Roids. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D heeeee......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2008 8:21:27 GMT
Sure, Janne's legs are proportionally small compared to the rest of him, but the man is a mountain! From www.strongman.ee/index.php?id=27 Height (m): 1,96 Weight (kg): 135 - therefore BMI (a measure for the untrained population but can give an idea of overall build) is 35.14 well into the 'obese' range so I hardly think he qualifies as skinny I have also heard he deadlifts ~830lbs in training, but the reliability of the source is up for grabs - www.elitefts.com/documents/finnish-deadlift-secrets.htmSteroids? Heck no Brenno - malted milk! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariusz_Pudzianowski (And a heck of a lot of training, determination and good genetics )
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