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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 22:35:39 GMT
That was a very interesting link. I admire ingenuity. Thanks for posting Kortoso.
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Post by themaster293 on Feb 3, 2008 3:39:32 GMT
255? Thats pretty cool. I can only do 210. But, by the time I am your age I hope I can do that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2008 5:15:05 GMT
You'll get there. Up to 300 lb bench and 450 squat is within the genetic ability of most men for a one rep max. To get there you need to be be benching 255 for 4x5 and squatting 405 of 4x5.
After you have physically matured (18 or 19 years old), with a strength focused program you should hit those numbers within 5 or 6 years. I started training at 16 years old and and got those numbers when I was 23 years old. Mind you, I was very focused on what I wanted. For me it was school, gym and work on the weekends. I didn't bother much with going out until after college. Your in a better financial position then anyway.
So, I'm 36 now and I'm still pushing the same numbers. I have to train very hard to maintain. Keeping it, takes as much effort as getting it. During the summer my strength drops off a bit. Within 5 or 6 years of proper strength training as an adult, you should hit your genetic limit. That is when you realize you need something more. Something less limited in its potential. Something that is skill related and that you can also apply your strength advantage to. That is why after much soul searching I took up rapier fencing and SCA fighting. I have good reason to maintain my strength and learn to project it in different ways through my swords in combat.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2008 5:32:54 GMT
I'm fourteen and i can bench my friend. Hes 155. maybe I can do more. Is that good for my age?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Feb 3, 2008 6:38:45 GMT
I'm fourteen and i can bench my friend. Hes 155. maybe I can do more. Is that good for my age? Do you mean you actually use his human physical form as resistance? You should get some weights. 155 is really good at 14, there wouldn't be very many 14yos doing those weights. Stay in school, keep off the roids. ;D
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Post by themaster293 on Feb 3, 2008 7:53:36 GMT
I'm fourteen and i can bench my friend. Hes 155. maybe I can do more. Is that good for my age? Thats pretty good. I know some seniors in high school that can do less. And listen to brenno about the steroids. I have never taken any, but I am pretty big and strong for my age, and every body at my school says I am on them. It sucks.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2008 17:51:46 GMT
A male's body goes through a lot of changes between 14 and 18. The changes happen at different rates for different people. That is why HS is so weird for a guys. You have a mix of boys and men in the same age range in the same school. Eventually most people end up in an average range by the time they are 18.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 3, 2008 18:05:28 GMT
*Shuffles feet akwardly* But I can squat a heck of a lot
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2008 2:06:46 GMT
MAh, im not very good nemore. Last time I worked out i benched 210, and Im 15.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2008 6:01:48 GMT
I just want to keep reminding you guys that benching by itself is of little use. If you are thinking in terms of a knockout punch, it does not take much force to deliver a knock out blow. In punching and otherwise thrusting, greater speed will yield I higher net effect.
The body works together as single machine in fighting. In most martial arts you will see people fight from a quarter-squat position (or lower) and generate power from there and project it. I spend one day on legs alone each week when I'm lifting three days in total. That is 1/3 of my time on legs. All the pushes and throws I do is from the legs. The upper-body just assists. This becomes even more critical, if you go up against a stronger guy. Its completely silly to fight a stronger man with the pushing power of your chest alone, you need your legs maximum power.
Twisting you hips to generate sword power also saves critical energy that you will need as the fighting drags on. You can wear people down like that in an attrition fight.
Remember, in power... First is Legs, Second is Back, Third is Chest. The three working together yields an net result greater then its parts.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2008 15:24:07 GMT
hmm 115 kilos, that isn't too bad a lift but benching is more of a testosterone thing, it has its uses but they have been blown all out of proportion, I can throw my friend with one hand and he weighs 209 lbs. I am not so strong in doing weights but when it comes to martial arts aspects of things I can lift a man who weighs about 220 and I only weigh 143 lbs and I am 6' 3. That could be because I conditioned my body when I was younger to be able to lift that kind of weight during fighting but I can't do weights for crap. Maybe I need to learn how to do weights properly or even just incorporate them into my ninjutsu techniques, I was using weights there for a while about 10 kilos for each hand whilst going through my various strikes. Now I am looking at getting some ankle and wrist weights because I figure passive weights that get used all the time are beneficial in a different way to weights that are used aggressively for lack of a better word.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Feb 4, 2008 15:56:18 GMT
Yes BW technique and real world practice can never be replaced with weight training. It's funny how objects in reality don't have conveniently placed 1" handles and a nicely balanced COG like a barbell. No, the real world is nothing like weight training. Now I am looking at getting some ankle and wrist weights because I figure passive weights that get used all the time are beneficial in a different way to weights that are used aggressively for lack of a better word. A warning re. ankle weights. RSI (repetitive strain injury) has been found to be a major problem for power walkers who swing those light weights hundreds of times. Forget the weights. Maybe just do body weight exercises in stead, and just do as many as you can. You may do dozens, and you won't put on any bulk, but you'll be fit and strong like a cheetah. Adam is a big user of body weight exercises, maybe he can post his routines, or maybe he has posted them already?.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2008 16:11:54 GMT
hmm 115 kilos, that isn't too bad a lift but benching is more of a testosterone thing, it has its uses but they have been blown all out of proportion, I can throw my friend with one hand and he weighs 209 lbs. I am not so strong in doing weights but when it comes to martial arts aspects of things I can lift a man who weighs about 220 and I only weigh 143 lbs and I am 6' 3. That could be because I conditioned my body when I was younger to be able to lift that kind of weight during fighting but I can't do weights for crap. Maybe I need to learn how to do weights properly or even just incorporate them into my ninjutsu techniques, I was using weights there for a while about 10 kilos for each hand whilst going through my various strikes. Now I am looking at getting some ankle and wrist weights because I figure passive weights that get used all the time are beneficial in a different way to weights that are used aggressively for lack of a better word. Brenno, you raise an interesting point! Did you happen to have a reference for it? I'll take have a squizz for one at any rate. Bloodwraith, perhaps training with a weighted vest would be useful? They can get a bit expensive, though, so perhaps a decently fitting backpack or military style webbing would work. An issue that is often raised with training techniques with added hand weights is that they can load the technique differently to how it is usually applied and that training with load that is <~10% (sorry I have no references... just stuff I am trying to pull out of a long ago memory from reading stuff by people like Mel Siff) heavier than the actual technique is a new technique and may interfere with the performance of the original motor patterns as a habit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2008 16:16:34 GMT
If you want to be really authentic, go buy a maile hauberk and run in that. I believe that I remember Hank Reinhardt saying that he used to run 4 miles a night in 40 pounds of maile when he was younger.
Now that's stamina.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 3:19:28 GMT
Vy: It didn't affect the way I did my techniques because I did it on and off, so I would go through a kata with weights and then go through them without the weights so as not to change the patterns. Funnily enough I am looking for a cheap maile hauberk to do exactly that for re-enactment purposes and might even train for my ninjutsu techniques in it as well. I have not got any real bulk but I have a lot of wiry strength. I'd be lucky to run a mile without maile.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2008 7:32:52 GMT
Now this is kinda digging up an oldish post but I finally came across some info on training with weighted equipment... looks like people make a big hullabaloo about not doing it and yet there's actually good evidence to support it!! I was so surprised! (maybe I shouldn't be these days...) Anyway, here it is: highwire.org/cgi/medline/pmid;10783901The overall recommendations for implement throwing was about 20% heavier or lighter for training... how the carries over to swords etc I have no idea... I wonder if I can find stuff on weighted bats. [Edit - additional info!]Here we go... not very supportive, but no long term training trials as far as I can see. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14510291Quantitative and qualitative analyses indicated that following warm-up with the weighted bat (largest moment of inertia), swing pattern was significantly altered, and post warm-up velocity was the lowest of the three conditions. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11883550Analysis of variance showed a significant decrease of 3.3% in the measured linear velocity of the bat prior to impact with the ball for the first swing of the post-Weighted condition compared with the Control condition. From the second swing the velocity returned to the level of the Control condition. Subjective judgment of the heaviness and velocity of swings for the Weighted and post-Weighted conditions by each participant showed that the ordinary bat felt lighter and swing speed felt faster for the post-Weighted condition. The advantage of the warm-up with a weighted bat was thus psychological and not biomechanical.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2008 12:56:26 GMT
How come I haven't seen this thread before . I can't remember who said it but you were talking about genetics deciding if your going to be lean or bulky. Well this is true to a certain degree but your training decides aloooot more, it's what kinds of weights you use that decides the most. When I decide a weight in almost all exercises I pick a weight which I can preform 8 repetitions and 3 sets with. This builds a bulky body, and a soon as I can do 8x3 with the next weight and so on I will become bulkier and bulkier. And I intend to use this until I get the body volume I want. Then I will use a weight that I can do 15x3 with, which will make my muscles "harder". And then go for 25x3. When I use a lighter weight I will not build more volume than I already have because the the muscles are already big from the heavy weight, but instead the lighter weights will "improve" my muscles and make them harder. But if I stay with 20x3 on a weight and just increase the reps from the beginning I will build a much leaner body up to a certain point. I have not been to the gym for a couple of months now but before I went on my "break" I did 8x3 90 kilo bench, or 8x3 32kilo with erm "handle weights" bench. And I did 10x3 19kilo biceps curl. But I never train my legs, I don't need strong legs, I want fast legs
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2008 21:37:35 GMT
Now this is kinda digging up an oldish post but I finally came across some info on training with weighted equipment... looks like people make a big hullabaloo about not doing it and yet there's actually good evidence to support it!! I was so surprised! (maybe I shouldn't be these days...) Training with doubleweight weapons and shields is described in Vegetius, circa 300AD, and echoed in the Poem of the Pell, circa 1400AD. In Iran's ancient practice of zur khaneh, you see men exercising with heavy clubs and weighted shields. Not to mention the use of the heavy suburi-to in Japan. It's apparently a very ancient and widespread practice.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2008 1:14:44 GMT
It's apparently a very ancient and widespread practice. Hey kortoso, Sometimes there's a problem with doing what other people did as it propagates myths... like weight training makes you slow, etc. Often the psychological aspect (like in the previous study where the bat felt lighter and made them feel faster) will take precedence as there's not always a definite measure of performance improvement. However, if the psychological aspect affected increases confidence (when it's not undue ) then perhaps that helps overall! What I do find interesting is that there's the bokuto and the suburito... one lighter and one heavier... perhaps for training speed and strength respectively, they definitely could have been onto something.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2008 3:07:20 GMT
I can't remember who said it but you were talking about genetics deciding if your going to be lean or bulky. Well this is true to a certain degree but your training decides aloooot more, it's what kinds of weights you use that decides the most. I have to disagree. Everything I have read related to sports science training indicates that genetics is the primary factor. No matter how hard most of us would train, we would never be an Olympic level athlete. At that level all those people had an edge from birth. The training only brings out what is already there. Consider that the number of fibers within a muscle are there from birth. You can not increase the number of fibers in your muscles. Some people have more fibers packed into a muscle. Then there are genetic issues like joint to bone proportions. Their is the issue of how the joint, tendon, muscles are attached. Variation provide different leverage and speed. Then there is the proportion between red fibers vs white fibers. The White fibers are the explosive fast-twitch fibers. The red as the endurance slow-twitch fibers. These are also determined at birth. Most people have an even mix. Chanmpion shotputters would have a higher ratio or white fibers from birth while a champion marathoner runner would have more red fibers from birth. Over the years I have compared listed workouts of basketball players vs. football linemen. Often they are not that different. These two groups of people have different body types. From my own experience over the last 20 years in the gym I have gone through periods where I did high reps in the 8 to 10 range and I have gone through periods where I did reps in the 3 to 5 range. The different effect in noticeable to me in terms of pounds on the bar, but the difference was not that much overall. When I lower the reps my strength peaks. When I go to the higher reps, I am in a maintenance phase but I certainly don't get ripped or anything like that. You mentioned you don't do legs because you want speed. As a rapier fencer speed is everything to me. Squats give me the explosive edge. All explosive athletes have squats as a core exercise. You mentioned your experience with different lifting routines. I saw in your profile that you are 19. Your body up until now has still been growing and going through variations. From this point forward it will settle down. If you train consistently by 22 or 23 you should get with 90% of your genetic potential strength. If you have the genetic potential to bench 500 lbs you will get in the 450 by then and they you might spend the next 15 years getting that extra 50 lbs.
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