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Post by rammstein on May 27, 2007 20:50:20 GMT
I think you're confusing cowardice with not serving. Not giving your life for something you don't believe in (as you are arguing as well) is not cowardice - it's logic.
Now, for iraq - the reason why our soldiers are so much better today than say, a levied army of peasants is because they volunteered - again, as you said. This means that they know what they are getting into and therefore have the curage and will to fight. On this, we obviously agree. You also bring out the drafting version volunteer issue. When people are drafted, you get normal people into combat who sure as hell do not want to be there. Whereas volunteers have done just that - volunteer for combat.
For firsthand, of course you're right I've not been in a gunfight. However, all you need to do is listen to american survivors who are acclaimed as "heroes" and "pinnacles of bravery" for killing like...30 people while wounded and from their own mouths you'll here them say that they were acting in order to survive. They were not thinking of glory for america and defending democracy and honor and love for country and other malarky you here reported by news stations*. They didn't want to die. From the mouth of Ron Kovik, vietnam war causualty and paralized from the chest down, the only reason why he survived was because he wanted to live - more than anything else in the world.
You're friends cousin is great. And that's why he was in the military. And not just some office worker in a cubicle; he was more than that as his actions clearly show. THAT is real courage and bravery, it's what sets volunteers apart from average joes.
So I agree with every one of your points.
*I don't believe in propoganda, and I think that military glorification is just that and therefore I don't support it.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2007 23:02:07 GMT
I actually had to take a break and cool off before replying. I am glad someone else made the points (thanks Adam) that I was going to make. I am a 15 year military veteran and have a lot of friends who have been and are still in Iraq. One (my SCA household brother) served as a paramedic and treated a guy with burns over 90% of his body. The burns were because he kept running back into a burning Bradly Fighting Vehicle to pull out wounded comrades(again thinking nothing of himself). His dieing wish was to tell his wife and daughter that he loved them. This is just one of many stories coming out of Iraq.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war, is worse . A man who has nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance at being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill
With that said I hope we can get back on topic. I only wanted to make a point about courage in combat.
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Post by rammstein on May 27, 2007 23:06:26 GMT
Jason, I understand completely. That's why, as I just said, there's quite a difference between a volunteer (I remember hering a quote somewhere that said "There's nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer") and a levied peasant. THAT was my point. Sorry that had to turn ugly but I think we're on the same side of the blade here. Pay and benifits are obviously a temptation for some to join the army, however way you cut it. Many people went into the reserves for this reason (and I know some too) who got more than they bargained for when this country plunged into combat. Thousands of lives were disrupted.
In my opinion, the ugliest thing is when a country deludes itself that war is necessary. Sorry, but I'm a pretty die hard pacifist who thinks that there are many routes to go before all out war. Freedom does not mean picking up a fully auto and releasing a hail of bullets. I respect our soldiers but most certainly not what they are doing, if that can be accomplished. However, that is no fault of theirs. My views are not going to change on thiseither, as I've firmly cemented myself to this view after opening my eyes to the horrors of war rather than the textbook niceties that many people seem to think exist.
No offense intended, but I just don't believe.
I am backing out of this because my views are hard set and so apparently is everyone elses. I know I'm right and you know you're right and frankly, nothing is going to get accomplished like this. All this has done has further strengthened what I believe in.
Shall we get back on topic without giving each other an unnecessary cold shoulder? I mean we all agree on the same relevant issues. It's the political aspects that we differ on and that is no reason to lose such admirable friends as you.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2007 0:41:55 GMT
On the issue of Bravery vs Self preservation and from the perspective of historical terms... in a siege situation you pretty much had to fight to the last man because usually non were spared except sometimes for nobility that could be ransomed. From the perspective of the besiegers, yes the front lines carried the greatest risk but they also recieved the greatest rewards. The units that entered the city first got first pickings on loot and women. Do not confuse our modern moral standard with traditional fighting men. Robbery and rape was their reward and incentive. Fingers where usually clipped to remove the rings off the swollen fingers of dead men. In ancient times women and children where taken as slaves after having been rapped by the front lines. This was a great source of wealth, far greater then their military pay. The men in the rear lines got little reward.
Often times in open field battles, men did flee when the battle was decided. This often resulted in sieges closer to home where those same men where slaughtered to the last man. I am thinking in particular of the Roman genocides up north. Entire tribes where rendered extinct. Also consider the siege of Constantinople where Mehmed II gave 7 days looting and raping privileges to the invading troops.
Lastly, non of us can be certain of anything, non of us lived in those times and the sources are often uncertain. New information is constantly being discovered and old information being re-examined, so none of us should take take a hard line on any issue. We are all wrong in one way or another.
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Post by rammstein on May 28, 2007 0:50:02 GMT
As an anecdote to tsafa's analysis, all one needs to do is read up on soldiers percepectives of the 100 years war. After successful sieges the besiegers (the english in particular) were ruthless in rape in pillage.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2007 1:03:21 GMT
No hard feelings.
I agree, war "plunder" was a great incentive for many of the warriors throughout history.
I guess in the SCA the incentive is to have that good "no semprini, there I was" story to tell around the campfire.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on May 28, 2007 7:48:41 GMT
Sorry for the delay Tsafa I've look a your pictures and read your posts again, I think I might know how to help your stance. You say you like to use a low quarter-squat stance for sword and shield fighting and rapier fighting, which is ok except for your back foot, you say that you try to keep your back foot at 90 degrees but it slips to 70 degrees. Your back foot is slipping to 70 degrees because that is a more natural setting for you foot in your stance and it would aligned with your knee better. Your quarter-squat stance is kind of like the regular natural stance or boxer stance or what ever you want to call it, where you shoulders are kind of squared off. In rapier or classical fencing they like to keep their back foot in 90 degrees because it helps to pull their shoulder back so they are in a linear stance and less of a target.So when you fight with a rapier and you want your bf at 90 degrees you should be in a linear stance but if you want to be in your quarter stance you should move your bf to around 70 degrees. Here is the drill it is very simple to do, it helps to teaches you to bend your knee in the same direction of your toes.Some instructors teach the drill to their students because some of the students kept hurting their knees. Oh yeah don't lock your knees out when doing the drill
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2007 9:40:16 GMT
That is very interesting. I have not seen that drill before. I will try it for a few days or a week and see what effect it has at practice.
Thanks for posting it Razor.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2007 1:17:20 GMT
Tsafa,
You are not going to believe it. I got suspended from fighting at SCA events for doing a live steel demonstration at the demo! I am posting it here as I don't want it overly highlighted as Kingdom is actually doing an investigation and I have to wait to see what the findings are. Just need a place to get it off my chest.
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Post by rammstein on May 29, 2007 1:22:07 GMT
Oh no!
Trueswordsman if it is of any consolation, bring them over here and show them that you have our support!
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2007 2:36:12 GMT
As most SCAdiens know politics runs deep, so I am just going to have to ride this storm out. Hopefully the punishment is small and I don't face a long term ban from fighting.
I can still go to local fighter practice, but I will not be able to fight at any SCA events or tournaments.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2007 4:13:57 GMT
That sucks. What was the context of the livesteel demo you did? The whole problem issue is insurance for the SCA. I'm not sure what it covers, but it is definitely not anything related to livesteel.
At the my 5/19 demo there was a livesteel group there too doing a demo. I talked to them for a while and looked over their weapons. I never considered I might have a problem if I worked with them for a bit. But then again that was a formal group doing a formal demo, so I am guessing I would have been under their umbrella. I don't know, just guessing. I will ask some questions at my practices this week.
I got a warning from my one the marshals at an event back in April. It was the end of the fighting, and I was starting to strip my armor. My girlfriend, started taking light wacks at me with my sword. I picked up my shield and sword, and started making light thrusts at her legs. She was pretty much throwing her shots into my shield and they were light. I did not think it a big deal. One of the marshals came over and told me to stop or put on my helmet, because if some other jerk marshal sees me, he can pull my card. This is the sort of horsing around we do all the time at practice with the girls and its not a big deal cause everyone knows everyone there. It turned out to be different at a public event.
I hope you ride this out, and get back fighting soon. It would be a shame to loose a dedicated guy like you.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2007 11:49:00 GMT
I do believe it is totally a liability issue from the SCA's standpoint. It was an SCA demo, which makes it an official SCA event, though we did make a disclaimer that the live steel portion was not part of the SCA. That bit did not make it into the paper, and that is what Kingdom is going off of.
So, I will just have to wait and see what happens.
I will have to say that when I spoke to our Shire Senischal yesterday she said our demos were working and she has had a lot of new potential members calling her. So in my opinion whatever the outcome I did my job!
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Post by rammstein on May 29, 2007 18:53:40 GMT
trueswordsman, you could try arguing that because you did make that disclaimer, it is up to the news paper who reported it to relay the message. You did your part.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2007 11:07:24 GMT
Tsafa, You are not going to believe it. I got suspended from fighting at SCA events for doing a live steel demonstration at the demo! I am posting it here as I don't want it overly highlighted as Kingdom is actually doing an investigation and I have to wait to see what the findings are. Just need a place to get it off my chest. Trueswordsman, may I ask how many years experience in sword arts have you had ?? I only ask this as I have seen a person shot down in a similar fashion to what you speak of, for bringing a shinken to an Iaido class. The sempais made him leave the dojo and was not allowed to return to training. They explained to us this was because he had not earned the right to use a sharpened blade from his training, and they did not want to teach him knowing he was going to go home and use his shinken with their techniques. It is kind of like, you can't play water- polo until you know how to swim ! My condolences mate , I believe you didn't mean any malice by your actions but as you know, not everyone sees things as we do ! I hope they give you a darn good explanation though !
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2007 18:18:50 GMT
You can't play water polo until you learn to swim... but try to teach someone to swim outside the swimming polo.
I respect swords, but to refuse someone from having one just because he hasn't studied sword arts for 5 years straight is silly.
Who has the right to tell me what right I have to handle or own a sword?
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2007 23:10:21 GMT
The SCA deal was not because of lack of experience or anything. It is just one of their rules in place designed for liability purposes.
I could have been a Fencing Master and still been in trouble.
I thought my disclaimer that this part of the demo is not part of the SCA would be enough, but of course the news papers did not write that part. They only wrote "live steel demo", which is the phrase that got me into trouble.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2007 23:29:38 GMT
You can't play water polo until you learn to swim... but try to teach someone to swim outside the swimming polo. I respect swords, but to refuse someone from having one just because he hasn't studied sword arts for 5 years straight is silly. Who has the right to tell me what right I have to handle or own a sword? Calm down there Adam, Noone can stop you from owning a sword , there is no need for being defensive mate. However, It is their game and if you want to play you have to follow their rules until such a stage as you develop profficiencies of your own. This , can take years mate. Just think of others logic, You would not be giving a fifteen year old boy a sharpened shinken to wave about on their first week training. You just wouldn't do it mate ! Accidents happen and as you of all people should know, the details involved in learning a Koryu can take upwards of ten years to fully grasp. I mean, a sword polisher alone can study for 8 -10 years just to polish a katana correctly. With any Japanese art, the details are the most important factor in learning. People are so adamant , and impatient now a days they lack the experience of age and seem to feel a god given right to do any bloody thing. ALL quality in life takes time, yes anyone can pick up a sword but it takes a real swordsman to know when to put it down. The older you get mate , the more this will make sense, I promise !
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2007 1:55:07 GMT
Hey guys, you wanna know a secret?? Here goes.... I touch myself.... lol Just had to, I am sorry.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2007 3:12:29 GMT
Look jasonv, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you will probably go either blind or sprout hair on both your palms before the week is out, if you keep it up mate. ;D ;D
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