Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2007 19:32:00 GMT
I participated in a mini-tournament/demo this past weekend and my girlfriend took some very good action shots that I want to share and analyze. It is my firm belief that unless you critically analyze yourself and consider other peoples analysis of yourself, you can not improve. Still pictures are a great tool for learning to fight better. Pic 1 This is the rapier part of the tournament. Here, in the green, I have already lost my my offhand and I am fighting single. In this shot I have just parried an incoming thrust. The problem is that my point should be pointing at my opponent, not up at the sky. The point should always be presenting a threat. With my point up, my opponent has a clear range advantage where he can hit me but I can't hit him. My back foot is also too far back, and my weight balance is too far forward. The balance should be even. Pic 2 In the above picture I am doing a much better job of keeping my point in line. My back foot placement is also better. It is a little closer allowing me to better advance. Pic 3 Here I am in red fighting the big green 300 lb monster with the polearm (350 lbs with his armor). I only weigh 210 (260 lbs in armor) with sword and shield. As you can see my time in the gym is well spent. I have stepped in and placed my shield on his polearm and have pushed him off balance. You are not allowed to charge, only push his weapon which he happens to be holding. So no momentum, all power. From this position, I took his leg which you can see sticking out as a result of him being off-balance. Pic 4 Guess what happens when that leg sticks out... You loose it! Then you fight me from the ground. Pic 5 Here I have just deflected a thrust from his spear, but I have made a big mistake is sticking my leg out like that. I should not have brought my off-leg so far forward in my advance. Pic 6 This is one of my favorite shot. I have bound his pole with my shied and I have just thrown a wrap shot. You can see the false edge striking his head. The problem here is that my rear foot should not be off the ground. There is no reason for that. It only makes me unstable. I can do everything that I am doing better by keeping that foot on the ground. Pic 7 Here the Green Monster has attacked me on my left side which I have blocked with the shield. Everything looks right here. My left leg is behind my right. This is clear because of the way my shoulders are positioned. I am sideway keeping as much of me as possible behind the shield presenting no open target. Pic 8 Here is another good example of my I am using my short weapon to my advantage in real close range fighting. You can see my point going straight into his face. The problem is that I should have had my shield on his weapon. He hit me a second after I hit him. I a real fight I would have gotten wounded too and thats not good. Just to look at things from the other side too. The Green Monster has for the most part failed to use the range advantage of his weapon effectively. He should not let me close in on him. He needs to keep me at a distance where he can hit me, but I can't hit him. If I should get close in, he needs to back out fast. Pic 9 Here the Silver Fiend as taken my leg. I am forced to fight him from the ground. I am making things worse by extending my shield out needlessly. It tires my arm and exposes me more. But look... the Silver Fiend is holding his shield up high, covering areas I can not reach and opening up areas that I can... Pic 10 All take that leg, thank you. Now we are both on the ground on more equal terms. You see me throwing a wrap in an attempt to get around his shield. He has blocked it. Pic 11 Another wrap over his shield. This one found his head. Again I have used my leg power to corner him against the rope. No charging, just constant pushing against his weapon. Pic 12 Here the Silver Fiend has a polearm. I block and strike back. I should not have my shield up in the air like that. I should be blocking with the shield closer to my body at the far range. He as many options at the range and can quickly turn the tables. Pic 13 Here the Silver Fiend has challenged me to single sword combat after have become completely frustrated with my shield work. With no shield I had to depend on distance as my main defense. As in rapier combat I had to be very careful on when to close in. Because these swords are balance for cutting, I could not maintain a point in line defense continuously. The tournament was decided with a wining thrust I made to his face. My rapier training came in very handy when I gave up the shield. Please feel free to offer you own analysis on what you see in the pictures. FYI, my opponents refereed to me as the Red Devil on that day, lol. We all took turns taunting each other in order to further amuse the crowd.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2007 21:18:51 GMT
I have two observations. One on your posture, and one on 'wraps'.
First, your posture. In the first two pictures, your rear knee is torqued pretty bad. This is bad because it means your frame is not structured well and so isn't as strong as one with good skeletal alignment. To make up for it, standing in such a way taxes the quadriceps of the torqued leg. Muscular compensation for bad skeletal alignment is never as strong as good alignment in the first place. Another thing to note is that torquing your knee is very bad for the joint itself. You'll be feeling it when you're 'over the hill' if you don't change it.
If it were me, i'd work on keeping my rear leg turned out from the hip joint(using the rotator cuff muscles). Most people are very stiff in this area so it's absolutely essential to really focus on it during your training to become more flexible in your hip joint to free up the torque on your knee. The knee should always point in the same exact direction as the toes of that foot.
As for my other observation: your 'wraps'.
Now I'm going to say right out that I don't think wraps are conducive to a weapon designed for cutting. I've trained with some guys with various levels of SCA experience, and I know how incredibly powerful a wrap can be when done properly. However, there is SO much more to cutting than merely hitting very hard. An old teacher of mine used to do a demonstration with a sword where he would hit a piece of bamboo(held horizontally) full force and the sword would just bounce off the bamboo. Then he would make a strike with good cutting form at almost half-speed and it would cut clean through like butter.
What I'm trying to say is that wraps are great if you're using a club or a rattan simulator, or something that damages based on impact. I don't think they'd cut very well.
but... forgoing that for the time being, let's just say that wraps are effective cutting strikes. Even if they are, you need edge alignment to cut with that. Edge alignment is absolutely universal to a good cut. the sword's cross-sectional weight needs to be aligned directly behind the edge, which should have momentum perpendicular to the length of the blade on the plane connecting the edges. That's a fancy geometric way of saying keep the sword behind the edge when you cut.
In your wraps, as far as I can tell(particularly the one where your foot is off the ground) the sword doesn't seem to be aligned properly. The edge sure enough hits the target, but it appears to be an oblique hit. Now it's hard to tell exactly, considering the simulator you're using is round, but given the orientation of the basket and your hand, I can subsequently determine that your edge is indeed misaligned. if this is a trick of the camera angle, let me know...
Anyway, my 2 cents on the whole thing. Apart from that, your own observations seem to be very much on the mark...
Though I think that fighting from your knees in the case of a lost leg is silly. I understand why it's done, and it's very fun to do, but silly nonetheless.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on May 23, 2007 23:23:39 GMT
so uh...you'd rather hop around one one leg...?
Sorry but I just can't think of any better way to simulate a lost or damaged limb then to act as if it isn't there and compensate.
YUou're point on knee torque is very valid, I'd dsay tsafa should take that into considration quite a lot. You never want a damaged knee as you know tsafa...you found that out when a guy hit you there half force.
Adam, I'm afraid I'm not going to agree with you 100% on wraps. I'v cut through several medium from water filled jugs to small tree limbs using a cut similar to this. The drawbacks to using this are the lack of power (as you pointed out) and also a very exposed arm bevause of the over-extrension. Also, when against a helmet, this is not a shot I'd advise throwing. There just isn't enough force in a wrap to break through the helm (if that's even possible) or even damage the man inside more than a slight headache. To edge alignment...
Edge alignment is important obviously, but I think you're judging it a little harshly. Remember that the SCA sword handle is round in cross section meaning that there is not a good way to measure edge alignment. Real swords are ovular generally so that edge elignment is always easy to tell. If the SCA used swords of a more ovular cross section, I sincerely think this problem would disappear rather quickly. However I don't see that his alignment is "that" bad in the pictures actually...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2007 23:38:13 GMT
I'd rather consider the fight OVER when hit with a blow strong enough to incapacitate a limb. If I didn't faint from loss of blood, I'd go into shock. Adrenaline would give me 10 seconds maybe during which the use of the injured limb would constantly wane until it was gone, and then i'd be far to fuzzy headed to do anything else for the next 30 seconds until I died.
You don't mess with strong femoral artery cuts... they kill way fast.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on May 23, 2007 23:49:59 GMT
what if the cut is incapacitating but doesn't hit an artery? As in it severs tendons and renders the leg unable to support itself?
|
|
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,088
|
Post by admin on May 24, 2007 1:16:26 GMT
I agree that fighting from the knees smacks of Monty Python and is hardly realistic... Indeed, this is actually one of the main things that prevents me from joining my local SCA club - petty as it may sound... It would be far better to rely on an honor system - so that if it is a flesh wound (no Monty Python Pun intended) to simply limp - or if it was a serious hit - fall down... Of course, once you have fallen down with an imobillised leg the options are limited. You could probably prop yourself on one side and swing away like a maniac, scrambling using your elbows and your 'good' leg to face an opponent who is circling you. Or maybe even, as an act of desperation, throw your sword at/into your opponent (never know - you might get lucky and catch them by surprise!). Just my own observations and the way I like to do freesparring with Lance's RSWs...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2007 1:26:55 GMT
what if the cut is incapacitating but doesn't hit an artery? As in it severs tendons and renders the leg unable to support itself? Hard to sever a leg tendon without lacerating quite a number of heavy duty blood vessels... but if it does indeed, then you can be sure I won't have the ability to walk around on my knees and continue to fight full force regardless.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on May 24, 2007 1:35:36 GMT
fighting from the ground is quite possible however and even if one doesn't agree with how getting on the ground in the first place is accomplished ("severing of the leg") there are still numerous ways for one to be knocked down and have to fight on their knees. What if you're just rhrown to the ground and only have time to crouch up a little before your opponent rains blows on you? What if you trip on the battlefield? What if your leg is shattered or at least fractured from the impact, even if the sword doesn't cut through the armour? FIghting from the knees is a valueable part of combat. In fact, to counter Paul's argument, I've always found european longsword a bit silly in the fact that there is no fighting from realistic positions other than standing. Often, both combatants in a longsword duel were fatally wounded.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2007 2:39:02 GMT
Great pictures and analysis on the fight. Against the 300 pound guy you can really see how the weight training and strength can be a bonus. Tsafa, you have actually inspired me to train even harder. I did not see any pictures of your starting stance, but wonder how you start off (guard or ready position). I am on the right and you can see how the guard is with the pommel up and the tip down slanted across slightly over the shield. This helps protect the right side of your head and allows for a quick blow to either side. You have to remember to keep the elbow tucked behind the shield or a good fighter will pop it. I think this guard is called "Imperial Guard". I do know that it provides a lot of protection. I have been using it for 6 months with good results. Now to the next topic, which is the taking of a leg within the SCA combat system. I admit it is not realistic to keep fighting after the loss of a leg. I am not even sure how it originated. Did the founders decide that the fights were too short if the leg was deemed a death blow? One thing to consider is that all fighters are considered to be wearing armor. Maybe, a blow to the leg simulates someone with armor taking a hard blow and falling and then fighting from the ground. There are two ways of fighting from the knees as well. One is both knees on the ground and the other is kneeling one knee down and the other up. The second I listed is not used often as it does not allow you to lean back an position your head further from your opponent. There are times when I am fighting where I will go down on one knee to gain an advantage against an opponent, but then have the ability to pop back up again. At times there are advantages to being lower with less body exposed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2007 4:43:49 GMT
Thanks all for your comments. I will try to address each one. There are pros and cons to most of the comments that have been made.
On the stance. I think Adam was referring to my low quarter-squat stance. I use this intentionally because it lowers my center of gravity making me more stable and allows me to dig in. This is compatible with my style of fighting that tries to destabilize my opponent and then fight him from there. After years for doing full squats with over 350 lbs, maintaining this stance with 50 lbs of armor and weapons is not a problem. The stance by its nature also puts me in a position to spring forward or back because I am already crouched. The stance also presents a smaller target to my opponent because when I am in that position, more of me is behind the shield. Less of my leg is exposed.
To answer Trueswordsman's question, my ready stance is with the shield high up to my side of my face almost covering one eye. Quarter-squatting to cover the leg and sword to the side to protect against offsides. This stance makes me vulnerable to Moulinets. I prefer this stance because I feel I can do more with my sword from this position. The stance Trueswordman uses is a very popular stance. The vulnerability there is an on-side snap. You can defend against that by tilting your blade further down, but I feel that further limits my striking options.
It is interesting that in rapier fencing I have also been taught to use a low quarter-squat stance too, because it favors being more balanced and puts me a position to lunge forward or back. A lot of fencers use it.
On the wraps issue and their effectiveness.... I have done hundreds of wrap drills on a wooden pell with sharp swords. Swords range from just under 3 lbs to over 4 lbs. With all swords, even a 2 lb viking one I was able to hack into the wood anywhere from 1/8 of an inch to 1/4 of an inch. These wraps may not have the ability to cut a head clear off, but they can break bone. That is really all you need to do.
The wrap opens up target areas that would otherwise be off limits. What is better... to sit there and wait for you opponent to lower his shield so you can hit him... not likely... or throw that wrap that may at the very least injure him and open up other opportunities. A good wrap is a good option to have available to you and not to be overlooked. I can tell you I have received plenty or bruises through my armor from very powerful wraps and I have given a few myself. The sword I am using at this tournament weighed almost exactly 3 lbs. The Big Green guy felt those wraps. At tonights practice I was using a 2 lb 15 oz sword. The wraps work equally well with a little more speed.
On the issue of legging. Yeah I can agree that if you take a mans leg the fight is over. I real life he would not be able to fight back. But I also see some good reasons to learning to fight from your knees or fighting someone on their knees. To some extent I think it resembles a melee from horseback. As a footsoldier, how would you fight someone in an elevated position on horse. The horse is confined an can not maneuver. Similar, from horseback how do you fight a footsoldier when you can not maneuver your horse. Not exactly the same but there is some skilled to be learned there too.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2007 5:07:45 GMT
I don't think the stance itself is bad, Tsafa, only that your knee is torqued while you stand that way. You need to either rotate your toes forward or your knee outward, and it's more stable to rotate your knee outward more. That's all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2007 5:27:54 GMT
Sorry. I misunderstood you.
Generally I point my front toe in the direction that I am going in, that way I don't roll my ankle. That may not be clear in the photos or perhaps my opponent shifted to the side and I have not adjusted yet. Back foot I try to keep at 90 degrees, but that is something that has been slipping down to about 70 degrees. I have to work on that. I fight better at 90 degrees.
Thanks for bringing up that good point Adam.
|
|
Razor
Member
Review Points: 55
Today is tomorrow but not yet yesterday
Posts: 501
|
Post by Razor on May 24, 2007 8:06:37 GMT
Hey Tsafa looks like you had fun last weekend?
In the first two pics your back knee is not aliened with your toes. Look at your opponent in both pics, see how his knees bend in the direction of his toes. Maybe you can shorten your stance? There is a drill to help train you to bend your knee in the direction of your toes , I can show you the drill if you want me to? Can I post video through photobucket or do I have do it from youtube?
If you had your sword in lined with your forearm when you parried in the first pic your point would have not been pointing at the sky. To have your point threaten your opponent when you parry you have to break your wrist which makes a weak parry like you did in the first pic. You need to keep your sword in lined with your forearm just like your opponent does in both pics. when you parry like that your point will be off a Little bit but it will be a lot stronger. I think I need to take some pictures to show what I am talking about.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2007 8:29:32 GMT
Hi tsafa, this is my mini-analysis. In picture 1 and 2 you seem to leaning into your opponent, sort of forwarding your stance.This may just be a fencing thing mate but you know where my skills lie. I have been trained to maintain straight backed posture as to give your opponent less of a target, and to not presuppose any movement/change of direction that you may intend to make. Idealically in my art, you want your opponent to come to you so if I took a forwarded stance, it may make your opponent take a defensive stance which is harder to break. In photo 3,6,8,9,10,12 and 13 you have a very exposed chest area. I know you have a shield and armour but is not the biggest threat to a knight in armour, a thin blade or a lucky arrow going in one of the many crevasses . Having the shield so big as well may impair your line of sight and force you to expose your underside when you raise it ( either in defence or to get a clearer view of your opponent). You really look like you take no prisoners Tsafa. Unfortunately my art is not as brutal as yours but by the look on your face in the last photo, I would say you have found your calling ! Maybe I'm seeing things, but is that Redjohn in photo 5 !? ;D ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2007 11:54:09 GMT
Hi Razor, yes, post the drill. We do footwork drill before fencing practice, but you might have something new. I will also tell other fencers to watch my knee/toe alignment for a couple of rounds to determine if this is a flaw or just occasional due to changing direction. We don't just fight linear like classical fencing, we are free to move in circles.
Chop I also notice I was leaning forward in the first picture. The second one is better but not perfect. That is something I have been working on.
What you said about holding the shield more closed is also something I try to concentrate on. I can still protect against most shots, except a moulinet. That will get me every time if I am open. I try to guard against this by holding the shield handle almost over to my opposite shoulder but also by keeping my rear foot behind my leading foot rather then to the side as I close in. That changes when I get real close, because a like handed fighter can not reach my right side so easily, but he can easily wrap around my left side in close range. So when I close in, the shield moves more to the side to block wraps and leg shots on my left side.
A point was made earlier about edge alignment due to the round surface of the rattan. If my alignment is off more then ten degrees, my snaps or wraps will loose power. My opponents won't accept a light hit. Also if my alignment is off more then 10 degrees, I will feel it in my elbow and wrist. Occasionally everyone throws a bad shot, that lands flat. When you are hitting a hard semi-hard target, both the person throwing the shot and the person taking the hit will know if if is landing flat. On my test on the wooden pell, I have found that shots that are thrown with power will bite in and chip the wood at 10 degrees off center. If it can chip wood, it can break bone. No this is not good enough to chop a head clear off, but it can hurt someone enough to win a fight.
|
|
|
Post by chakobsa on May 25, 2007 1:29:19 GMT
fighting from the ground is quite possible however and even if one doesn't agree with how getting on the ground in the first place is accomplished ("severing of the leg") there are still numerous ways for one to be knocked down and have to fight on their knees. What if you're just rhrown to the ground and only have time to crouch up a little before your opponent rains blows on you? What if you trip on the battlefield? What if your leg is shattered or at least fractured from the impact, even if the sword doesn't cut through the armour? FIghting from the knees is a valueable part of combat. In fact, to counter Paul's argument, I've always found european longsword a bit silly in the fact that there is no fighting from realistic positions other than standing. Often, both combatants in a longsword duel were fatally wounded. In reality, fighting from the ground is difficult at best, with a lot of luck you just might gain enough time to get up again or land a lucky blow but generally speaking if you go down in a fight you are finished. It's as true in an unarmed street brawl as it would be with swords, the guy who goes on the ground is in trouble, he has no leverage to speak of unless he's able to grapple his opponent in some way, If he's lucky enough to get a strike in with a weapon then it had better be a thrust 'cos he's not going to be able to generate any real power from the ground. Try it now, get down on your knees and try to throw any kind of punch you can think of, then try it standing up. try it with a sword if you like but this time imagine one of your legs has been rendered useless by a powerful blunt force strike or a cut, chances are if you have one or more broken bones or major blood vessels have been cut you are going to end up looking like one of the Towton skulls. ;D
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on May 25, 2007 2:18:21 GMT
A fight is RARELY over when a man falls down. Look at period artwork, you'll find many people fighting from the ground. One in particular I remember is a knight lying on the ground deflecting a spear thrust into his shoulder rather than chest while raising his sword to smite his assaillant. When longsword grapples bring a man to the ground, the fight is most certainly not over.
Punches are more difficult to throw from the ground because you can't get any torque in your hips. That means that all of your strength i going to come from your arms or, if you use them right, your shoulders and back. A sword strike would most certainly be lethal from the ground, whether cut or thrust, although as you point out, it is noticably difficult. But hey, I'd rather go down fighting than not throwing the shot because it was "too difficult."
What if, instead of taking damage to the legs in order to go down you trip? Or you are pushed? Or thrown? There are many possibilities for an otherwise fit healthy individual to find himself on the ground in a battle.
What I've noticed here is that everyone seems to be comparing 1 on 1 judicial style combat rather than battle. For all I care about, battle is what matters. Single combat (i.33, lichtenauer, etc.) is great for developing skills but by no means is authoritative and the countless obstacles and variables in battle. It's just too hectic to make authoritative exlamations of what "can't" be done when we see that it happens quite often if we are to believe period sources.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2007 2:37:43 GMT
Hay Ramstein I don't know if you saw what one on the minor details I posted so I will requote it because I think applies:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2007 2:40:06 GMT
Have you ever been in an actual fight with more than one person, Rammstein? I have... back in the old water polo days when their team didn't like our team and decided to let us know after the game was over...
If you're in a brawl and you go to the ground, then within a matter of fractions of seconds one of the following will happen: 1) You get trampled, 2) someone who is standing let's you know how advantageous their position is...usually with a kick, 3) someone jumps on you. If no. 3, then options 1 and 2 often happen anyway. When on the ground, there is so little time to get back up it's ridiculous. People that fall to the ground are ALWAYS far more bruised and bloodied than those that manage to keep their feet. That's just the way it is.
I can only imagine the carnage that would ensue if instead of a dozen or so guys fighting a dozen or so other guys unarmed it was hundreds on hundreds armed and armored to the teeth.
Going to the ground in a 1 on 1 duel due to injury or the effective technique of your adversary is a very critical time, but not necessarily does it mean the fight is over and done. Usually it does, but it's easier to recover from the ground in a 1 on 1 fight.
On the battlefield, that's it. Yeah, you might deflect a thrust into your shoulder instead of taking it into the chest and kill one extra guy before you croak, but you're gonna croak... all the more so now that you have a spear in your shoulder. That's why martial arts that descend from battlefield arts stress keeping your feet and remaining mobile so much. You can't afford to focus on just one opponent for more time than it takes to throw maybe one attack before you move on(of course, in formation fighting that's a bit different, but even there falling to the ground can be devastating for your whole line...).
Anyway, that being said, Liechtenauer's fighting art was just as applicable on the battlefield as it was in the duel. And it wasn't just longswords that he taught but also single sword, messer, spear, knife... all of those in and out of armor... sometimes describing techniques against multiple opponents... etc. Fiore's just as much as Liechtenauer's. Fiore was actually in something like 4 different battles...
In fact most of the renaissance masters point out pretty early on in their work that their fighting methods are just as applicable in a 1 vs 1 fight as in a battlefield situation. The key there is that they traing a number of principles of fighting, and principles are universally effective. That's why even today businessmen read books like 'The Book of 5 Rings' and 'The Art of War'.
|
|
Razor
Member
Review Points: 55
Today is tomorrow but not yet yesterday
Posts: 501
|
Post by Razor on May 25, 2007 3:04:32 GMT
I will post the drill when I film it. I also move in circular movements when fighting with a rapier, I like to attack my opponents with different angles. I don't really like to have my back foot in a 90 degree angle, it makes me feel stiff and not that agile.
|
|