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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 10:14:06 GMT
Hello everyone, ;D I am new to the forum officially, but have been reading here for awhile especially in regard to Kissaki-moroha-zukuri style blades. But have found little about these beautiful style here except one review of a Dynasty Forge version. DF's version of this style  There are a few swords out being sold with this style from around $180 USD up to over $10K. The Kogarasu Maru is sometimes referred to as a Kogarasu Zukuri as the blade of the Kogarasu Maru was forged in the Kissaki Moro Ha Zukuri design. The Kogarasu Maru "Little Crow" is the most famous of the known Kogarasu Zukuri blades and currently in the Japanese Imperial Collection. This style is quite amazing is described as a "unique as a bridge between the old double-edged Japanese Ken (based on the traditional Chinese straight sword) and the traditional Japanese tachi and eventual katana." Here is a picture set of DF's version of these swords.  This is the Musashi Cloud Dragon Katana - Kogarasu Maru  Hozon Sadakatsu Tachi from 1940  I have found they say the Kogarasu Maru is more likely a product of the late Heian period, of the Yamato school. It showcases a transitional form between the straight swords with two cutting edges of the earlier periods and the final graceful form of the late Heian tachi that established the pattern for Nihonto for the following millenium. Kogarasu-zukuri is a much more difficult shape for the swordsmith given the extra details in the shape and the additional surface provided for heat-hardening. Dr. Sato Kanzan in his writings indicates that one of the possibilities that this shape did not become the dominant form was due to the difficulty of manufacture.  So my Question for people is fairly simple, yet with lack of information here and online in general it maybe a goose chase. I am curious to learn more about these blades and how people like them? I considering purchasing one soon, probably the ST-Swords version. But I would like to hear what experience others may have had with their Kissaki-moroha-zukuri style blades. Or hear some knowedgable info and history about them. ST-Swords version called Sai Karasu Maru  Unique styled groove tip  I look forward to hearing what people have to say. |
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Apr 9, 2010 11:46:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 12:23:04 GMT
;D Thanks Marc,
Wow, that is a pretty blade. Great outdoor shots of it. Love the use of flower backdrop. I will have to go to Oni and take a look at Oni's version see what they say about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 12:41:57 GMT
Hanwei raptor line has one I think. Only kat I'd ever consider purchasing, a swords NEEDS two edges in my opinion ;D Lot more possible techniques with two edges.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 14:40:18 GMT
It also voids a lot of techniques possible with just one edge. ^^
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 14:52:54 GMT
I think the point of being harder to make is a very valid point for the old smiths, now days it can be made with modern metheds so now we can enjoy it for a resonible price.....SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 15:05:31 GMT
I personally don't like the design and it would make noto much less graceful. I'd go with a single edge, but that's just me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 17:01:51 GMT
This design is growing on me more and more.I am thinking of getting the Raptor version soon.Got one Raptor and another one on the way,love them.The Hanwei site lists their moroha-zukuri as a light cutter tho.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 19:14:29 GMT
I personally don't like the design and it would make noto much less graceful. I'd go with a single edge, but that's just me. You don't noto kogarasu-maru the way you noto a single edge "regular" katana (be it shingoi, shobu, or anything else) unless you want to lose a finger..... |
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Apr 9, 2010 19:22:11 GMT
I love the style but it is very hard to find one that is really done the way I want it. I want DH and the naginata style bohi termination and good fittings. sigh I don't know if I'll ever have one but I do want one.
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Post by shadowhowler on Apr 9, 2010 19:26:12 GMT
I rabidly dislike this style of katana... when I first saw it I tought it was a BS Anime fan boy katana style... but our own Marc Ridgeway set me stright with a whipping!  I still think this style of katana looks horrible tho. |
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Apr 9, 2010 19:47:41 GMT
I rabidly dislike this style of katana... when I first saw it I tought it was a BS Anime fan boy katana style... but our own Marc Ridgeway set me stright with a whipping! I still think this style of katana looks horrible tho. Heh... sorry about that  |
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Post by shadowhowler on Apr 9, 2010 20:05:43 GMT
Heh... sorry about that Not at all... I'm always open and receptive to learning... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 20:18:18 GMT
I rabidly dislike this style of katana... when I first saw it I tought it was a BS Anime fan boy katana style... but our own Marc Ridgeway set me stright with a whipping! I still think this style of katana looks horrible tho. Now see to me, I find it much more beautiful than the standard boring constantly seen katana style. But keep disliking it please, and I and others will admire them for their unique beauty all the more as they will stay unique and uncommon. Technically you wouldn't really call it a katana style either, since this style predates the invention of the katana. It would be the Grandfather of the katana if you would consider the evolution, since it went from the double edged straight sword to these then the tachi then katana. To me I find the majority of katana quite boring looking, no interesting design qualities to set them apart from the millions of other katana just like them. Yes there are a few subtle differences that do show in quality katana, no doubt. The Kissaki-moroha-zukuri style though is a dramatic difference seen right away. ;D I feel there is a seductive elegance in the curved double edged blade, the double BO-Hi adding extra play of light and shadow along the blade. For my taste, this style when done right is just DAMN SEXY. Maybe it is partially because I also use taichi sword with a straight pointed blade? Or because I like a lot of European one & half hand double edged swords? I don't know why really. I just get a flutter inside (almost like when seeing a beautiful woman) when I see one and seems I just am drawn to them. I see the furniture mounted but often will semi ignore those and I concentrate upon the lines of the blade. To me I see these as much more desirable than the katanas generic style. I would imagine one well made would have quite a bit of speed. I would think they would be slightly less weight, a bit more areodynamic, at least in the tip? Maybe the center of balance be more well centered with less weight pulling down on the tip? I have no experience with these as of yet so could not say, and it is why I posted this, to hear more from people who actually do have them. People who can tell us all what their experience with these unique blades are like. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 20:38:38 GMT
I love the style but it is very hard to find one that is really done the way I want it. I want DH and the naginata style bohi termination and good fittings. sigh I don't know if I'll ever have one but I do want one. I totally hear you on how hard to find these blades are. There are actually many out there online to wade through but they just are advertised well. They aren't pictured well to see what they are right away, might not even be labled as Kissaki-moroha-zukuri or Kogarasu maru. *added edit (many are actually same blades from the same forges with different mounts)* I have seen many labled tachi, I have waded through many online sword vendors catalogs looking for these beauties. I will let you know if I find any you might like. Of course the option you may have to go with eventually is getting someone to forge one for you to your specs. If I had the money to spend I definately would go that route. Well if I had the money I would actually go to a school nearby and learn to forge my own. Which I am still considering eventually. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 20:59:08 GMT
I personally don't like the design and it would make noto much less graceful. I'd go with a single edge, but that's just me. HMMMM...... this is one of the reasons I created this post. How do you resheath this style sword? As quoted above the double edge, especialy if sharpened well, would change the way you would resheath the sword. So Marc or anyone who wons one of these, what do you suggest? Is there any historical info on how they were used? Considering they predate katana like a tachi, are they worn blade down? There are lots of questions for these and there seems to be little easy info to find on them, other than the same Kogarasu maru "little crow" story you find on wiki and reproduced all over for kissaki moro ha zukuri blades. Which is sad since Kogarasu moro is one specific blade in a museum not the actual style. Took me a while to find the true style name. This is why I ask for more info from those out there who do know. For all those who are interested in this style. |
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Post by shadowhowler on Apr 9, 2010 21:15:12 GMT
Now see to me, I find it much more beautiful than the standard boring constantly seen katana style. But keep disliking it please, and I and others will admire them for their unique beauty all the more as they will stay unique and uncommon. Its a deal. To me I find the majority of katana quite boring looking, no interesting design qualities to set them apart from the millions of other katana just like them. Yes there are a few subtle differences that do show in quality katana, no doubt. I personally am really fond of the Unokubi Zukuri style katana... I think its interesting and different, yet still sleek and beautiful, and still a katana. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 21:30:42 GMT
UNOKUBI-ZUKURI  KISSAKI-MOROHA-ZUKURI  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 23:49:53 GMT
I'm usure if the katana is a descendant of the moroha, I've always considered it a side branch. Where the kiriha zukuri and hira zukuri developed into the shinogi zukuri, the warabite developed into the moroha.
Doing noto with it ain't easy, perhaps the thumb was used to steer it sideways via the groove, but since it's an early form it was mounted tachi style. The later "reproductions" were often formal swords, and there was probably not the need to even unsheath them.
I have a couple of the cheaper production ones. The big difference from a shinogi is that the double edge leads to removal of steel from the front part of the blade. The blade is lighter than a shinogi, and the balance point is closer to the tsuba. The sword is highly manouverable, and stabbing is more precise than a tip heavy sword. It's probably a good instrument for finding weak points in armour, and the double edge gives the opportunity to reverse the cut and make greater wounds.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2010 0:42:00 GMT
I'm usure if the katana is a descendant of the moroha, I've always considered it a side branch. Where the kiriha zukuri and hira zukuri developed into the shinogi zukuri, the warabite developed into the moroha. Doing noto with it ain't easy, perhaps the thumb was used to steer it sideways via the groove, but since it's an early form it was mounted tachi style. The later "reproductions" were often formal swords, and there was probably not the need to even unsheath them. I have a couple of the cheaper production ones. The big difference from a shinogi is that the double edge leads to removal of steel from the front part of the blade. The blade is lighter than a shinogi, and the balance point is closer to the tsuba. The sword is highly manouverable, and stabbing is more precise than a tip heavy sword. It's probably a good instrument for finding weak points in armour, and the double edge gives the opportunity to reverse the cut and make greater wounds. Wow, thanks some good info there. ;D The info about it being the Grandfather of the katana is from looking up the style. There are often mentions of it being the bridge between straight double edge and the later curved single style. A few places I found it called the Grandfather of the Katana even. Of course I think you are right in that it was a branch rather than direct line. I feel it was probably the difficulty of creating such a blade that kept it from taking off as a wider spread style. I sword smith probably had to do a lot more work and pay a lot more attention to crafting one of these. It would take a much greater skill in sword smithing to temper the blade properly since it had to go part way down one side and fully down another, creating a very difficult process of getting the tempered curving of the blade. Maybe this is part of why they tend to be less curved more katana curve than a tachi curve. I like what I hear about balance and maneuverability. And very interesting about using the thumb with the groove to resheath (noto). Being a less common style there may never have been a formalized style for this, maybe? |
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So my Question for people is fairly simple, yet with lack of information here and online in general it maybe a goose chase. I am curious to learn more about these blades and how people like them? I considering purchasing one soon, probably the ST-Swords version. But I would like to hear what experience others may have had with their Kissaki-moroha-zukuri style blades. Or hear some knowedgable info and history about them.
I still think this style of katana looks horrible tho.
