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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 15:13:13 GMT
Oh yeah, he did say naj didn't he? Silly man. Katana, ken, tachi, uchigatana, nodachi, odachi, and others I've forgotten all pretty much just mean "sword" but each most do tend to refer to specific styles...the joys of language. Actually, as I understand it, it goes like this: Ken means "blade". As in, any bladed instrument. Knives, daggers, swords, etc. Tou is a different way of saying ken. (It's the same kanji, or something like that.) Hence, nihontou is basically "Japanese blade." Katana is the word normally used for "sword." Not sure if it's specifically implied to be Japanese style or not. Tachi also means sword. It's more old-school, but I forget if there's any actual differance between tachi and katana as far as etymology is concerned. Tsurugi also means sword, but specifically implies a double-edged blade. The ko's, o's, no's, etc indicate the size or style. Ko means "small", o means "big", as so on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 15:46:38 GMT
Oh yeah, he did say naj didn't he? Silly man. Katana, ken, tachi, uchigatana, nodachi, odachi, and others I've forgotten all pretty much just mean "sword" but each most do tend to refer to specific styles...the joys of language. Actually, as I understand it, it goes like this: Ken means "blade". As in, any bladed instrument. Knives, daggers, swords, etc. Tou is a different way of saying ken. (It's the same kanji, or something like that.) Hence, nihontou is basically "Japanese blade." Katana is the word normally used for "sword." Not sure if it's specifically implied to be Japanese style or not. Tachi also means sword. It's more old-school, but I forget if there's any actual differance between tachi and katana as far as etymology is concerned. Tsurugi also means sword, but specifically implies a double-edged blade. The ko's, o's, no's, etc indicate the size or style. Ko means "small", o means "big", as so on. Well said!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 18:58:49 GMT
Sparky, a water scythe is a robotic set up similar to an industrial plasma torch. at 1599 psi it can cut 1/4 in steel almost as fast. water is a powerful force when put in motion. look at grand canyon.... or new orleans. a hydroblaster can cut lexan at 15k to 18 k psi. but that is the same stuff bullet proof glass is made from and it'll stop your 9mm from 5 ft away. peoblem with it as a weapon... stand were while i roll out the hoses!!! LOL. yeah i know i sidetracked the thread. Duh You know I should have know that. Isn't that how some sword manufacturers cut out their sword shapes? ;D It's funny but this reminded me of a trip my family went on when I was just a lad. My step dad loved trains so we would go a look at them. Anyway there was this old steam engine that had been sitting in the same spot for years and any time it rained it would collect the water. That water would then drip from the same spot day after day after day............ Over time this dripping water drilled a perfect 1/2" hole through the rail. The evolution of a thread well there we have it. i dont think the katana could cut thru a rail like that. may be we should all get water guns at twenty paces and have a mele. LOL. i reckon one the photon is better harnessed, we could progress to light sabers.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 23, 2010 19:18:08 GMT
Oh yeah, he did say naj didn't he? Silly man. Katana, ken, tachi, uchigatana, nodachi, odachi, and others I've forgotten all pretty much just mean "sword" but each most do tend to refer to specific styles...the joys of language. Actually, as I understand it, it goes like this: Ken means "blade". As in, any bladed instrument. Knives, daggers, swords, etc. Tou is a different way of saying ken. (It's the same kanji, or something like that.) Hence, nihontou is basically "Japanese blade." Katana is the word normally used for "sword." Not sure if it's specifically implied to be Japanese style or not. Tachi also means sword. It's more old-school, but I forget if there's any actual differance between tachi and katana as far as etymology is concerned. Tsurugi also means sword, but specifically implies a double-edged blade. The ko's, o's, no's, etc indicate the size or style. Ko means "small", o means "big", as so on. Okay who the hell put a reset button down there by spell check? There goes another post that now I have to summarize. This post is pretty much correct, the only thing I can add is that "katana" still describes pretty specifically a certain type of sword in most modern cases. Granted the original term is arguably uchigatana, but there is indeed a distinction between katana and tachi that includes but is not limited to furniture and manner of wearing. There are parallels in almost all cultures (a saber is just a sword, right?) but we keep certain words to differentiate types. I'm sure Liam would be furious if I started talking about my Hanwei Practical Dao, 5th Generation, or referring to ALL of Hanwei's product as dao, jian/gim, etc. "because "they are swords made in China."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 19:58:06 GMT
Well, to be honest Jian just means "sword" and refers to any double edged blade whereas Dao means "Knife" and refers to any single edged blade. However, in the context of this forum we try to use terminology where more appropriate. We want to call a longsword a longsword, a falchion a falchion, so on and so forth. A katana seems to be by common understanding a single edged curved Japanese style sword of moderate length - I'm certain there is more correct terminology to use but that terminology I do not know. Not being very into Japanese swords myself I try to at least have that level of understanding and would appreciate the same when it comes to my Chinese blades. Random, furious at you.... Nah, just laughing my arse off until it got annoying, then I might have some choice words to PM you with.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 20:36:37 GMT
This post is pretty much correct, the only thing I can add is that "katana" still describes pretty specifically a certain type of sword in most modern cases. Granted the original term is arguably uchigatana, but there is indeed a distinction between katana and tachi that includes but is not limited to furniture and manner of wearing. Oh, I'm aware of that. I'm just saying the words themselves both mean "sword." Well, it's not about origin, but what language you happen to be speaking. Refering to a hanwei katana as a dao, for examples, does make sense if you are talking Chinese, just like the above terminology makes sense if you are talking Japanese. We were talking about language, right? I don't know, I came back to the thread late and saw what looked like a terminology discussion...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 21:26:54 GMT
i don't agree with your point about the katana... gladius is sword in Latin, shpata means sword in Illyrian (that's where the Romans got their spathas from), yatagan means sword in Turkish, but they have come to mean a special kind of sword (hence referring to the name the people who had them used for them), that does not mean that when you are saying gladius, spatha, or yatagan you are referring to all swords...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 21:59:46 GMT
i don't agree with your point about the katana... I made a point about the katana? Of course not. But that's a question of context, not linguistics.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 22:32:25 GMT
Oh yeah, he did say naj didn't he? Silly man. Katana, ken, tachi, uchigatana, nodachi, odachi, and others I've forgotten all pretty much just mean "sword" but each most do tend to refer to specific styles...the joys of language. Actually, as I understand it, it goes like this: Ken means "blade". As in, any bladed instrument. Knives, daggers, swords, etc. Tou is a different way of saying ken. (It's the same kanji, or something like that.) Hence, nihontou is basically "Japanese blade." Katana is the word normally used for "sword." Not sure if it's specifically implied to be Japanese style or not. Tachi also means sword. It's more old-school, but I forget if there's any actual differance between tachi and katana as far as etymology is concerned. Tsurugi also means sword, but specifically implies a double-edged blade. Not really. "Ken" (剣) is reserved for a sword. Not knives. Doesn't matter what type of sword, but still- swords only. "Katana" (刀) is a bit complicated- Basically, it means every bladed tool used for cutting, even a kitchen knife. With time, the word "hamono" (刃物) came into use, and "Katana" was used to describe local swords. Because foriegners and foriegn swords were rare in japan, the first reaction to the sight of a foreign sword was "what is that katana", so it's a common mistake to use it as a general word for "sword". We can see the active difference between 刀 and 剣 with wooden swords- If you say "bokken" (木剣), it will be regarded to as any type of wooden sword. However, if you use "bokkutou" (木刀) it specifically means a japanese-type wooden sword. Again, with time, the word "Ken" was changed to describe every type of sword (and swords ONLY) Tachi (太刀) uses to descrive a longsword only (for example, a wakizashi is a katana, a tachi forever will be a longsword) . After the simpler type of katana was brought into use, it turned to a word describing a certain style, and we got the terms "daito" for all types of longswords. Tsurugi uses the same kanji for "ken", was used in aristocratic type of speech, but later turned to heavily imply that it is indeed a double edged sword. "Tou" uses the same kanji as katana, and nihontou (日本刀) does does indeed mean a japanese blade. "Tou" will be never used as a word alone, and will only be used when connected to other kanji Japanese is a major headache sometimes....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 22:55:20 GMT
Not really. "Ken" (剣) is reserved for a sword. Not knives. Doesn't matter what type of sword, but still- swords only. Well, I don't actually speak Japanese myself, but my favorite dictionary translates it thus: Ken - (n) (1) sword (originally esp. a doubled-edged sword); sabre; saber; blade; (2) bayonet; (3) swordsmanship; (4) stinger; ovipositor; dart; I guess I misremembered on the part of it applying to knives (though I can swear I've seen or heard it used that way somewhere) but at least it doesn't seem to only regard swords. Except for when it's a kodachi. That is to say, literally a small tachi. And, well, translating kodachi into "small longsword" doesn't sound right to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 23:13:08 GMT
The dictionary you use confuses me quite a bit, i don't see any possible way "ken" can say "swordsmanship" or "dart". I woudn't really rely on most online dictionaries, they do a very half assed job, maybe because eastern and latin languages are extremely different in any possible way.
About "kodachi", it is indeed written as "small tachi" (小太刀) Bust just because tachi means a longsword, it doesn't mean that you can break it apart to "long" and "sword". 太 , futoshi, is a proper noun, it has to be connected to something to get a meaning, without another kanji near it- it's meaningless. However, you can take the entire word and add whatever property you want to it. Long, short, whatever. What i meant before is that "Tachi" by itself, alone, can never mean short sword, while "katana" by itself can definetly mean a short sword. When dealing with eastern languages, forget all your common knowledge abot latin languages, it will just confuse you, since they don't work the same way at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 0:20:00 GMT
i don't agree with your point about the katana... I made a point about the katana? Of course not. But that's a question of context, not linguistics. errr... yes, what you have been arguing about the last few pages (that is to say the word). anyway, yes, they are used in context, hence, people understand what the mean. So, if the author is asking "is the katana overrated," then we all understand
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 1:34:52 GMT
"A through hardened katana is really no differen than a sablre other than the handle" "As far as cutting ability, they are sabres" uh, yeah, let's totally ignore blade geometry, maximum possible levrage at percussion point, the fact that it's a 2-hander as opposed to most sabres, typical dimentions, and every other possible feature or aspect of the sword that may affect it's cutting properties.
There's a reason why a sabre isn't called a katana, and a katana isn't called a sabre, much more than TH/DH and furniture.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 2:06:29 GMT
If you manage to sever a limb with a saber without the opponent raising it sideways conviniently and waiting a few seconds for you to wind your hand back and bring it down full-force at a perfect perpendicular angle to the arm, i salute you.
A sabre is a single-handed, shorter and lighter sword. It has significantly less power in each blow, it's not supposed to go through bones (nor is it efficient at doing so), it's supposed to open gashes in your opponent's body, cutting through skin and muscle, rendering him unable to fight, and if you hit a good spot- die pretty quickly. It's also a decent stabbing weapon.
I suppose you know what a katana is and how it should be used.
And yeah, BS is amusing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 3:43:47 GMT
If you manage to sever a limb with a saber without the opponent raising it sideways conviniently and waiting a few seconds for you to wind your hand back and bring it down full-force at a perfect perpendicular angle to the arm, i salute you. A sabre is a single-handed, shorter and lighter sword. It has significantly less power in each blow, it's not supposed to go through bones (nor is it efficient at doing so), it's supposed to open gashes in your opponent's body, cutting through skin and muscle, rendering him unable to fight, and if you hit a good spot- die pretty quickly. It's also a decent stabbing weapon. I suppose you know what a katana is and how it should be used. And yeah, BS is amusing. lol, I hope I won't have a heart attack from the laugh... +1 for that. Anyway though, sabers were used to cut through bone, flesh, horse, military uniforms, anything cavalry got faced with, back in the day.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 4:29:26 GMT
i dunno, seems like sabers cut through limbs just fine...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 4:39:16 GMT
yea, but that was't standard issue back then Nonetheless, sabers could take your libs off... upon rereading, pika, what do you mean by "latin languages"?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 4:48:31 GMT
Actually, I´m turning a katana into a saber as a pet project....
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 24, 2010 4:59:01 GMT
lol the old saber vs katana bit. There have been a good many two-handed sabers throughout history. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries Japanese swords were converted from the "katana" form to that of "sabers." Same blades, different mountings...so which are they? Well, they're not. They've got a new name. One of which is Kyu-gunto, the others I DON'T KNOW LOL. The army had 'em, the navy had 'em, the police had 'em...they were all katana blades in saber mounts. Good stuff. Sabers are just as good as any blade when it comes to separating limbs from body. Just have to whack it right. Swords are swords...unless your Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Philippino, Turkish...I could go on, but I think it'd be safe to say the idea has been gotten. This all started because of a word...which was claimed to be the same as another word...which was not, in fact, exactly the same, for current accepted use. Now here we are. Grand! So, how 'bout them Russian Cossack bolos, or those zany British yataghan? Also bear in mind the differences between a saber...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2010 5:58:04 GMT
I dont know what you guys are talking about. A katana can easily cut through other swords and stuff.
I used my nihonto(from ryan swords) to cut through a bloody tank.
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