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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 16:53:40 GMT
All swords have a bit of hype behind them the japanese just had a better agent. In all seriousness, its very unlikely that any of us will ever use a sword for what it is made for so part of the reason for owning a sword IS the "hype" surrounding it. In your other thread "why do you own a sword" there is a reason many people speak of the books they've read and the romanticism surrounding them. There is very little practical reason to own a sword. I dont think that many of us have a sword because we thought it might be handy in a home defense situation, or even that it would make recycling easier. There are better and more practical things for that. No, we own and use swords for more personal reasons. All swords have myths and legends surrounding them, thats part of why we like them. I think that all swords are overrated and I will be damn sure I do my part to see it stays that way. Interesting thought. The hype and romanticism might be the main attraction for all of us.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 17:49:33 GMT
Okay, since I'm the current president and sole member of the "I hate Katanas Fan Club." (I'm being tongue in cheek here folks), and having seen the Lindy Beige video several times now, I might as well chime in. Yes, there is a lot of hype about Sam-your-eye swords out there. Most of it I hear from folks who couldn't tell the difference between a katana, nodachi, wakazashi, or Chinese Dao.
Hmm... let me think, did the Japanese invent differential hardening - no, the Chinese did that. Did the Japanese invent San-Mei lamination - no, the Chinese did that too. Did the Japanese invent the single edged, curved blade - nope, the Chinese imported it at an undetermined date in history from cultures that were west of them. The Hunmen-Turks turn up a lot in this search but there is nothing definite. Is the Katana an effective weapon? By all means YES!!! It is no more so than any other sword, but let's give the katana it's due props. It is a well-designed effective weapon for the cutting, slashing attacks, it was designed for. Will a well made katana break a claymore? I doubt it when history has shown that the lightweight Jian and slightly heavier Dao have defend against them just fine.
That being said, Lindy Beige does have a bit of an overly negative tone in the video, but I do believe he was speaking in hyperbole. In this day and age katanas and other Japanese swords are much more available to the general "unknowing" populace than other swords. I can get a SLO kat at the corner grocery/head shop/trinket shop - I have to order anything else. Japanese sword training is much more available than any other. Both Chinese Sword Arts, and Western Martial Arts have to do a great deal of reconstruction from historical sources to complete themselves as effective martial arts. To study these styles, one has to dedicate themselves to doing this type of research not just waving a "sharpened iron bar" around. (No offense to the JSA guys, I'm simplifying to make a point.)
This fact to leads to unfounded assumptions about the katana, also. To many, the assumption is that - if this is the only thing you can learn about in this day and age, it must be the best. This simply is not true, and just a sad statement that other forms of Swordsmanship have not been as well preserved.
To end, no the katana isn't a miracle weapon, but than again nothing is. It is the skill of the person behind the sword not the sword itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 21:27:55 GMT
Ah, yes. This is the same guy who theorized that the hanging guard we see in western saber fencing was meant to protect cavalrymen from whiplash damage in their wrist during a charge. Yeah, he's pretty much an amateur who likes to voice his personal musings on youtube, not a scholar with substantional research to fall back on as far as I can tell. If you enjoy snark he can be entertaining to listen to, but don't take him for some kind of expert. I do think he has a point about Japanese swords lacking much variation, though. (That's not to say there wasn't some variation to them, but they were pretty minor and the basic design never really changed.) But honestly, what I really want to know is why the Japanese never seemed to have bothered with shields.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 21:53:55 GMT
I think some people were seriously trolled by this video
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2010 21:54:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 21:58:53 GMT
I think I may have chimed in on the other thread about this topic as well... The Katana is excellent at what it does. It cuts unarmored flesh very well. Just like the Rapier is good at what it does. Thrusting into unarmored flesh, very well. Each sword was made for a specific purpose and if we can't take the sword and examine it in the context that it was conceived in, then we have failed as scholars and historians. I would never simply say that the XII and XIIIs are the pinacle of cutting swords. I would say they are the pinnacle of battlefield swords in an age when mail was common and cutting swords were favored. To subjectify the attributes of a sword any more outside of their original application is folly. Except when it comes to bottles...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 21:59:00 GMT
I've seen most of this guy's videos and I think that he has very interesting views, as long as you remember that they're just his personal musings, which I think he states sometimes, but not always. I personally find him very entertaining, but I think it's just that I like the dry humor he uses.
I once had a friend who was completely convinced that if you dropped the blade of a katana point-down that it was so sharp it would peirce teh ground and continue until it reached the core of the Earth. He was also convinced that a sword made entirely out of glass would be highly effective.
I think the main problems is that people seriously believe things they see in movies, TV shows, and video games and take it all as fact, instead of thinking for themselves and asking questions about the world around them.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2010 22:11:36 GMT
I've seen most of this guy's videos and I think that he has very interesting views, as long as you remember that they're just his personal musings, which I think he states sometimes, but not always. I personally find him very entertaining, but I think it's just that I like the dry humor he uses. Very dry. That's what the tsuba's for. It stops the blade from falling through. Glass sword...nice. This.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 22:12:41 GMT
Anders, the japanese had shields. Wooden shields were used in old times by ashigaru, foot soldiers and I remember slightly reading about light shields/ bamboo screens used later by arquebusers. But the main weapons of the japanese warriors were not the sword, but bow and spear. These are wielded two-handed, so instead of shields the heavy armour was developed. You see a similar development in Europe. Is the katana overrated? In my opinion the katana has to be seen in the context of the japanese culture. The katana is the symbol of the warrior class, and has in addition to the practical use a highly spiritual meaning. It's a sign of superiority. After studying the katana for a while, I still get surprises by the effort put into the sword and the superb craftmanship involved. What I find appealing is that practical solutions is taken to a whole new level by combining the practical with art and spirituality. That is the superiority of the katana.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 22:35:12 GMT
To each, his own, Personally, I revere the katana. All others are just swords. But hey, that's just me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 23:31:06 GMT
Hey, that's still more then I've ever been able to find. Good work. So basically, they did have shields way back, but then they fell out of style and then they never bothered with it again? Geez. I once had a friend who was completely convinced that if you dropped the blade of a katana point-down that it was so sharp it would peirce teh ground and continue until it reached the core of the Earth. ...Your friend didn't get very good grades in physics, did he? Well, depends on what you mean by effective. At the very least, it would be very sharp. Actually, there were swords with glass edges. Or, kinda, if you consider the macuahuitl a sword.Anders, the japanese had shields. Wooden shields were used in old times by ashigaru, foot soldiers and I remember slightly reading about light shields/ bamboo screens used later by arquebusers. But the main weapons of the japanese warriors were not the sword, but bow and spear. These are wielded two-handed, so instead of shields the heavy armour was developed. You see a similar development in Europe. What, really? Because, well, the shield was used extensively from antiquety all the way to the Renaissance. As in, for thousands of years. Heck, just consider that for most of that time, there doesn't seem to have been any fighting system for single-handed sword that did not presume the fighters would also carry shields. (Not that I can tell, anyway, and I've looked.) Anyway, the point is that no matter what weapon or armor happened to be the standard of the time, you could always find someone with a shield somewhere. And it's not just Europe, I'm pretty sure it was the same in China and Persia and India, etc. Compare that to Japan, where the hand-held shield apparently vanished completely in the Asuka period and was then never seen again, anywhere. For crying out loud, we are talking about a wide piece of armor you hold in front of you. It doesn't get more basic then that. I just think it takes a very special kind of thinking for a feudal martial culture to collectively decide that shields don't have a useful part to play in a medieval-era military.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2010 23:36:44 GMT
I think the key in the Japanese aspect has been covered pretty well already. They simply engaged in warfare that favored two-handed weapons, be they bows, spears, or swords. Very few single-handed weapons were ever used at a particularly large scale, so with both hands tied by the weapon, there was really no place for a shield. Add to that the many methods by which said weapons could be use AS shields...and there you have it. Simply a matter of preference based on a formula that just worked for a large number of people. Also, there is a vast difference between a sword with a glass edge, and a glass sword. That ol' volcanic rock glass stuff (the devil was it called again?) sure took a fine edge, but we never saw full-length swords made JUST out of it, to my knowledge. Prove me wrong, though; I'd love to see it, actually. I've tried to find it before with no luck, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 23:50:39 GMT
I am going to give a simple answer to the question, "Is the Katana overrated?". Yes. Now that the simple answer has been given, I can give another simple opinion. In the world of real swords (not people with 20 foot swords or katanas that literally cut like lightsabers {Also known as anime}) the katana is a very very very good sword. But yes, I believe that as good as it may be, pop culture (and the cult of katana) has made it overrated. That does not mean that it is a bad sword, though. Like I previously said, it is a good sword.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 23:53:52 GMT
Helluva good sword. And there are several other swords that just as good. And many that I prefer over it. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 23:58:51 GMT
Katana are not overrated. If anything, they are misrepresented...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 0:18:40 GMT
Random, was it obsidian you were looking for Really sharp, but too brittle for a full-size sword
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 0:21:45 GMT
I once had a friend who was completely convinced that if you dropped the blade of a katana point-down that it was so sharp it would peirce teh ground and continue until it reached the core of the Earth. Huge LOL.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 0:23:14 GMT
no, misunderstood more often than not, both in terms of capability and use.
All I can say is that at least in history and legend none have ever claimed to have cut through an anvil with a katana, unlike at least one famous sword from the icelandic sagas.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 21, 2010 0:28:24 GMT
Random, was it obsidian you were looking for Really sharp, but too brittle for a full-size sword Ah, yes; that stuff. Talk about hype.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 0:28:48 GMT
lol i love this debate obviously the guy never saw modern marvels ( axes knifes,blades) on the history channel. explained the difference between euro swords and japanese in a computer simulation its all about the cutting edge of the sword which lends to the hype
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