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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 6:34:41 GMT
So here is the age old question once again....do you prefer your swords to be ground or pound?
I decided that this question should be brought up and discussed for newer members that are learning about the making of swords though these two processes. It seems to be a recurring question for first-time sword buyers; so why not make another thread and poll on it?!?!?!
I personally don't care, I own swords made by both methods. I don't have a preference. I used to insist on owning only hand-forged pieces; but this changed as I learned more about how these two manufacturing methods were used historically to yield very similar results and quality.
Which do you prefer and why?
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Post by shadowhowler on Jan 2, 2010 6:39:49 GMT
Either one works for me... you can make a quality sword with either method.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jan 2, 2010 6:49:58 GMT
I agree either one is fine. I used to be a pound-only kinda guy but Gus Trim changed my mind on that score.
really this is just like what steel do you prefer?
it's all about how well made the sword is. I would prefer a VA production pounder over a home made for sale on ebay grounder blade that was not properly formed, and I would take a Gus Trim grounder over a VA production pounder and I would take a Jim Hrisoulas pounder over a just about anything if I could afford the dange things.
there really is little to no difference between the two that doesn't come from the skill of the smith/maker
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 7:35:42 GMT
The results apparent in some swords can only be done through forging. For simple steel swords that require no folding (decorative or not), there is no real benefit of one over the others but some can profile a blade more quickly by forging than through grinding alone. All forged blades end up have some grinding/polishing done to finish.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 7:38:56 GMT
It doesn't terribly matter to me. If I had to choose between two absolutely identical sword that differed only in that one was forged and one was ground I would pick the forged one simply out of some sort of traditional aesthetic, but if the ground one were only slightly better or cheaper I would pick that. I really care more about the results than the methods for things like this, and if equivalent results can be reached through different methods, why does it matter?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jan 2, 2010 7:52:38 GMT
Mole', while you are right, I assume you are talking about features put there on purpose and not natural organic accidents like wavy faces and wandering fullers, etc. that being the case you are talking about features that come with SKILL, and THAT is the great divider.
as I read your post again I think I see that we are in more of an agreement than I originally thought. I leave my above comment just to hammer home my point and opinion then.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 8:34:20 GMT
I'm not sure how opinion via a poll then becomes disagreement. I was simply offering some basic "others" that readers may care to consider. It would be impossible (for example) for Barta, Powning, Evans, and Cashen (to mention just a few) to do historical construction of "viking" swords. Also tough on a grinder alone (tongue in cheek) to make san mai Japanese style blades. As far as profiling stock, it has been written that some forging can do so more quickly but with modern cutting tools (plasma, laser, water) it does become a bit moot if thinking in single steel and simple blade construction. Of course, a poll like this can be of benefit in discounting a lot of possible mythology but it just seems a bit less quantified than it could have been.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 9:01:06 GMT
i would prefer pounded because it would be the more accurate way to do it and probably would take more skill to make a good sword from that method (and skill in working the swords means the person doing it knows a lot more about sword-making and metallurgy in general), BUT, this would only be a factor when (as I think someone else mentioned) the swords are exactly the same... I would easily go for a ground blade because there is really no superiority of one from the other
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 9:11:40 GMT
In the end it boils down to the heat treat, the blade is forged by hand or machine, final shaping and heat treat is the end result either way....SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 9:16:32 GMT
as long as it's sharp, balanced and well made (heat treat etc) then I don't really care.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 10:42:01 GMT
I don't care either (well, I make my blades via stock removal anyways) but sometimes, you just need a forged blade, for pattern welded blades or just for historical accuracy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 15:05:25 GMT
All swords are forged, think about it.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 2, 2010 15:23:57 GMT
Well... either. I love my Ground Atrims... and I am anxiously awaiting my ground Lundemo... so....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 16:31:07 GMT
All swords are forged, think about it. Depends, if you consider making the flat bar to part of forging a sword, then yes. If you think sword making starts with forging/grinding the shape, then no.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 16:48:30 GMT
All swords are forged, think about it. Depends, if you consider making the flat bar to part of forging a sword, then yes. If you think sword making starts with forging/grinding the shape, then no. Yes, flat and round stock (and others) is formed in steel mills by a forging process. it doesn't just sprout from the crucibles as steel stock. Other smelting methods are still going to require forging (mechanized or not) to make shapes for blades. A rather singular modern method of difference would be the like Boye cast blades that get finished in grinding/polishing. Ceramics, likelwise.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 17:03:03 GMT
Doesn't really matter to me. What matters is how well it was made and functions.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 17:11:56 GMT
Hmmmmmm A tough call. I'll let you know after I buy a belt sander and and try stock removal. THIS, I like to see
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jan 2, 2010 22:17:54 GMT
It is worth considering the price point of this forum, versus the extra expertise / care required to get the same finished product from a forged blade.
A forge blade and a ground blade CAN achieve the same ends. But the forger does create a couple of extra hurdles to pass in that quest. For one the blade needs to be heated so many times it will lose some more carbon content than the ground. And there is the room for error that if it takes too many heating cycles it will lose too much carbon rendering the blade unable to be hardened properly. Also the high temps achieved in the heat cycles of forging are more likely to grow the grain, unless the necessary normalising cycles are adhered to prior to the quench. Also, every time a blade is folded there is the additional chance of an incomplete weld or and inclusion such as coal or firescale getting trapped in your blade.
These are challenges that a mastersmith is required to overcome. However considering the pricepoint of this forum, forging can open up a can of worms. There is always a tradeoff between extra care / skill / time vs price.
Part of the beauty of a mastercrafted blade is the quality and peace of mind. Consider commissioning Fogg, Powning, Hernandez and so forth. Versus your $50-$100 (from the forge) forged swords as are the focus of this forum.
Just saying stock removal bypasses a whole can of worms at this price point. There's forging and there's forging. If you are comparing the pinacle of forging versus the pinacle of stock removal, either is great. If you are considering a $100 wholesale blade, I'd suggest ground would net generally better results; dur to the reduced number or pitfalls. Obviously a ground blade can still be done wrong. There are just a few less ways of messing them up.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jan 3, 2010 1:42:57 GMT
As Sam mentioned, all swords a forged. Then they are all ground. Of course there are differing levels of human involvement. To greatly simplify: You can have the steel in one hand and the hammer in the other and pound away. Or you can have the steel in one hand, slide it into a machine while the machine pounds away for you. Or you can have the machines pound away and send you a flat piece when they're done. Then it's a matter of how much grinding is done and how much human involvement there was in the forging.
But of course that's not really what the op is talking about. When we think of forging, we generally picture the fellow standing over the fire hammering out a blade, whether it's a coal fire or a gas fire or he holds the hammer in hand or uses a pneumatic hammer. There is just something very satisfying about the image that is not there when you imagine a fellow just grinding away everything that isn't sword shaped from a bar of steel.
In practice, there's less to screw up on a ground blade than there is in a pound blade. Given proper heat treatment, the end result is the same. But I certainly get that people like that image of someone hammering out the blade. When I get the time, I'll definitely set up the equipment to do it myself because I'm intrigued by the image too. I'd like to do some pattern welded stuff at some point as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2010 2:15:22 GMT
Hmmm... It's kind of like asking if I send money to Sam or to Brenno, either way I'm going to be pretty happy with what I get. ;D
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