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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2009 22:32:01 GMT
How hard is it to cut the shaft of a polearm, assuming it is hardwood. I assume the angle has to be right and you have to wind up for it. Otherwise swords would have dominated polearms. I remember seeing Lancelot's video where he cuts a broomstick and makes it halfway through with his nearly 4lbs sword. There is a video by cold steel where they cut tatami wrapped around a 1" ash dowel with a grosse messer. The GM went through like butter. So, is it easy, or not?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2009 22:55:12 GMT
History seems to say, no it isn't. Polearms have traditionally been the main weapons of the battlefield until the advent of firearms.
Personally, that is not a task I have attempted, but given it can take me from 1-5 minutes to cut a water vine with a machete (which is actually made for such tasks) I would say the cutting of an incoming pole arm is one of those Hollywood moves that it's nearly impossible to pull off in real life.
Now, I've done some single cuts through vine up to about 1-1/2" in thickness. I can usually only do this is the vine is fixed to a solid object (like a live oak) and will not give against the incoming force of the blade. I would compare this to the dowel in the tatami it was fixed to the cutting stand. Now cutting a free swinging vine is much harder as the vine will give way to the force of the blade and the cut cannot apply the full cutting force to the target. In my opinion try to hit a polearm held by a person would be more like cutting to free vine. The polearm is going to give way as the person wielding it deflects your blade rather than trying to block blade with wood. Translation, unless you are the mythical super ninja/samurai/knight that can cut anything in front of him, you're probably not going to pull it off. It the polearm wielder knows what they're doing attacking their weapon rather than them, would probably put the attacking swordsman at a distinct disadvantage.
These are just my thoughts and opinions, but the SCA folk around here might have more of a clue than I would.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 0:12:26 GMT
It seems to me that it would be quite hard to cut through a pole. In order to successfully cut a pole in half, I think you would need to have ideal circumstances, including the absence of langets on the polearm. The presence of langets on various polearms would seem to suggest that bladed weapons would have some effect upon the shafts. But I think they were probably more for preventing accumulative damage than a single, cutting blow. I think that it would have been far easier to just bat the polearm out of the way, therefore getting past the danger zone. I do know that a polearm almost always has the advantage, when facing a (shorter) sword- at least that is what I have heard, and found to be the case during various sparring matches.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 0:17:14 GMT
it's really easy to cut a 1" dowel made out of wood when it is fixed... but on the battlefield you hit the haft of a polearm and you will deflect a blow, not cut through it... so can a sword cut through the haft, yes, but is it likely in battle conditions, probs not...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 0:19:04 GMT
You probably could cut the pole in half over time through a series of cuts, or if nothing else weaken it enough to make it break, but I doubt that you could sever it with one blow easily.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 0:22:54 GMT
another "problem" is that when you want to cut a dowel of wood, a branch, or even a tatami mat (ie, a rod-like object) the rod is perpendicular to you. But when your trying to cut the polearm, the rod is pointing at you. The angle makes it much more difficult!
Ancalagon
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 0:48:31 GMT
When you hear about a sword that is meant to "break a line of pikes" I don't think it's actually meant to chop the heads off of a pole arm, or anything like that. Rather, it would be meant to knock them off target. I picture one or a few shock troops charging at a line of leveled spears and using big two-handed war swords to sweep the pikes out of the way, so that the rest of the army can get close, inside their reach.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 1:03:05 GMT
Just a thought... Sirtre posted a video of a very basic staff vs sword drill: /index.cgi?board=otherweapons&action=display&thread=13467&page=1#224061
As you can see the staff wielder doesn't directly block the sword, which is what it would take for the sword to be able to "cut" the pole. If I'm not mistaken most styles of pole arm use teach that same tactic for deflecting a blade rather than blocking it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 1:20:19 GMT
When you hear about a sword that is meant to "break a line of pikes" I don't think it's actually meant to chop the heads off of a pole arm, or anything like that. Rather, it would be meant to knock them off target. I picture one or a few shock troops charging at a line of leveled spears and using big two-handed war swords to sweep the pikes out of the way, so that the rest of the army can get close, inside their reach. I think break the line of pikes is when the cavalry successfully gets in behind the first row of infantry, who most probably had pikes/spears/halberds to protect themselves from the cavalry the fact that the point is pointing at you doesn't really matter... you can execute a squinting strike (i think that's what it's called) to try and cut it, it would only push it away though, as it would with a sword.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Nov 29, 2009 3:58:54 GMT
This is just a thought but it seems that cutting the shaft of a polearm in a fight would be akin to cutting the arm of a swordsman in a fight. Sure, you could cut a man's arm off with a decent sword, but he's not attacking you with his arm, he's attacking you with his sword and you'd have to get around that to get to his arm. Similarly, you'd have to get around whatever is on the end of the pole to be able to cut through the pole and the fellow with the pole isn't likely to be moving his weapon past you if he can avoid it. Also, a good number of the polearms I've seen have metal langets running a good way along the shaft that would do a nice job of defending against a sword.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 10:52:49 GMT
This is a very very broad question. Also a difficult one to answer, against chinese and japanese spear and naginata techniques you have buckleys and none chance of cutting or even damaging the polearm, especially with chinese spear technique because of the motion of the weapon which describes circles and half arcs and is used to rapidly thrust like a sewing machine needle. Against a western polearm again you don't have a chance, not just because most of them have langets but because of the way way they are used. I used to do re-enactment and most of the polearms had dings and scratches but that was from years of abuse. No matter how sharp the weapon unless the polearm is still or you've grabbed it with the off hand you won't cut it, even grabbing it in the offhand you would need a series of good blows with an axe to do any serious damage to a polearm shaft.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 13:24:27 GMT
Gotta be sturdy, or a soldier will quickly find another solution to the killing question.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2009 16:50:16 GMT
I'll say that such a thing is possible, but probably unlikely. As others have said, ideally, in order to cut through a pole such as the one you've described, you'd need it fixed in position so that there's no 'give' to it.
A man holding a polearm will not be rigid, even if he held it as hard as he could, there'd be some give, which would soften the blow in any case.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2009 20:22:53 GMT
I do think though that a polearm can break during a battle. I mean you have a couple soldiers hitting it with swords and at some point the pole will be so weak that it will break. That's why you also have a back-up weapon. If the opponent is past the blade or if your main weapon is broken you'll need something else to defend yourself. The fact that most polearms were protected with iron shows that a pole without them can break which isn't good for the wielder.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 0:50:19 GMT
the only way you can break, really, a polearm in Euro fights is by having the tip on the ground and stepping on it... but there is a chance you will slip and fall...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 1:56:49 GMT
Another point to mention is that a lot of western polearms have some kind of protrusion, usually a small guard, hook, bill, or bottom edge of the blade. If a swordsman were to fail to cut the actual head off the pole, the polearmsman is in a prime position to disrupt the sword's line of attack by either pulling or pushing with this protrusion, then following up with a very quick thrust or thrusting cut. Exit swordsman.
From the movie Alatriste: the very effective use of pikes.
Around 2:20 ish, the pike v pike battle starts. You'll notice that the young soldier in the red ducks under the pikes and starts in with his dagger. That's more effective than trying to cut the shaft off the pike.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 2:08:14 GMT
Another point to mention is that a lot of western polearms have some kind of protrusion, usually a small guard, hook, bill, or bottom edge of the blade. If a swordsman were to fail to cut the actual head off the pole, the polearmsman is in a prime position to disrupt the sword's line of attack by either pulling or pushing with this protrusion, then following up with a very quick thrust or thrusting cut. Exit swordsman. From the movie Alatriste: the very effective use of pikes. Around 2:20 ish, the pike v pike battle starts. You'll notice that the young soldier in the red ducks under the pikes and starts in with his dagger. That's more effective than trying to cut the shaft off the pike. Agreed. a short sword used inside the pike line is more effective going for an exposed throat that for the tip of a pike. I notice one of those guys slapping aside a pike point with his sword, closing ground and wrecking house. I think deflecting a nine foot pike with the flat of your weapon is more effective than trying to sever the 2.5 or 3" pole. There was no room for the windup on whatever kind of swing would be needed to chop a pike in two. All that video proved is that approaching each other at a snail's pace with a 9' stick is kind of stupid and gives dicey chances for survival. Better to duck in and stab someone in the junk... or be smart enough to sit on a hill and lob artillery at the morons who brought a pike to a gun fight. Lamest.Infantry Charge.Ever.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 1, 2009 3:01:42 GMT
the presence of Langets shows without a doubt that pole arms can, could, and did take significant damage from swords, armor and other weapons on the battlefield. in a one on one fight the polearm is less likely to be damaged unless the pole armer ins't using it well or unless the guy with the sword is very good ad intends, specificaly to break the pole. in a battle, however, I would think a pole very likely to take damage both from blades and from impacting armor on people and horses. if this wasn't a real concern langets simply would not have been used, instead we see langets on nearly every pole arm. I think this evidence must be taken seriously. in SCA combat I have found that sweeping a polearm aside as it comes in at you full speed is not at all easy. the weight and speed of it makes turning it aside quite difficult. also many pole arms are designed in such a way that cutting at the pole does not really protect you from the attack.
so to sum up my ramblings: cutting the pole all the way through in one stroke - no, not likely at all. cutting into the pole enough to damage it to the point it will fail quickly - yes, quite possible though perhaps not the best idea as you will likely die doing it. hacking the shaft of the pole enough to destroy is with a series of blows from the same or differnent people causing the pole arm to fail early in the fight unless langets are used - quite likely and I would say even common, thus the existance of langets so predominantly.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 3:36:22 GMT
Sorry about my earlier post, I should have said
"the video shows the very effective use of pikes AGAINST HORSE" My bad... But the counter-pike moves in the video I think would work well. Especially when Diego gets in and starts ham-stringing people. Fun with tendons...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 8:05:07 GMT
Tom, langets on long pikes are to prevent that section of the pike from cracking due to impact and weight. When you stab someone, they sink downards; without a langet the head of the pike will come right off.
M.
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