SlayerofDarkness
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"Always give everyone the benefit of the doubt."
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Dec 1, 2009 8:30:03 GMT
Tom, langets on long pikes are to prevent that section of the pike from cracking due to impact and weight. When you stab someone, they sink downards; without a langet the head of the pike will come right off. M. Interesting... I'd never thought of it that way. Thanks for the info! ;D -Slayer
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 1, 2009 14:24:52 GMT
M. Eversberg, I have never heard that before. interesting for sure. forgive me though if it sounds a lot like the sucking-wound/blood groove arguement though. I'd like to see some info to back that up (just please don't go stabbing anybody to do so) langets are typically held in place by some sort of bolt, rivet, or nail which requires a hole in the shaft which will weaken the wood structurally if only a little. also when you stab some one, yes they sink down but as they do so your pole will tilt at a down-ward angle and they should slide off with gravity. even if you resist this downwards force on the end of your pole it should flex quite a bit especially if it is longer pole arm. those things weren't that rigid. there's mention above of pole arms being 2.5-3 inches thick (I assume thick since long makes no sense) and while that is a rediculously thick pole even a pole that thick will flex when you put pound or more of steel on the end and make it 8+ feet long(go ahead and TRY to hold a 3" thick pole I promise it ain't comfortable no way would that be fit for fighting) not to mention the weight of a body.
I have a hard time imagining the head of a pole arm just falling off or breaking off simply because the weight of a dieing body falls on the end. I think that body will fall off if the pole arm user doesn't just yank the pole back out of his target. I also don't see langets helping that. that and all the research I have done points top langets being for protection vs. blades. I admit my research is not very in-depth and I could be wrong here but I'm going to have to ask you to put forth some evedence, even if it is just research material.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 14:32:55 GMT
Unless you are the guy from Assassin's creed 2 who stabs his enemies and then picks them up so they sink onto the spear.
M: I'm not sure I agree with you, I've known lots of spearmen and had a great deal of experience with a spear and they don't have langets and the heads don't fall off. As far as my own experience and research goes langets are protective devices and also a stabiliser for the weight of the weapon, spreads the weight out along the shaft making the weapon more balanced.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 14:58:37 GMT
Blood, you may well be right. The reinforcement idea is just what I've learned via mA, though they're not quite a precise academic source.
M.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2009 21:05:40 GMT
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 2, 2009 22:07:35 GMT
yup, I fully believe it is POSSIBLE just not likely. the fact that a story of this type is retained surely indicates it was an exceptional feat worth remembering and retelling the story many times.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2009 22:20:25 GMT
my point there was more: "Remember how we talked about it being hard to time your maneuver to cut an attacking polearm? Well here's a saga that says it was only done on a notable occasion, and then only by a third party, not the attack's intended recipeint. Oh, and not to a polearm but to a spear shaft that was an inch wide." Short Version: Totally agree, tom. I just wanted to copy and paste awesome Viking names.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2009 2:36:11 GMT
Remember, Saga are meant to be heroic.
M.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 3, 2009 3:53:14 GMT
yup but there is also truth behind a lot of them. I have cut through 1"+ ash dowel in a single stroke before and I've seen bamboo held by hand cut with a single stroke so I'm sure it is POSSIBLE, just not easy or in fact pretty damn hard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2009 4:38:15 GMT
It doesn't actually tell us the mechanics by which he did it. I don't doubt that it is possible but there are extenuating circumstances that are required for such to happen. Also it would require a weapon like an axe (which the vikings are well known for using).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 17:12:58 GMT
It doesn't actually tell us the mechanics by which he did it. I don't doubt that it is possible but there are extenuating circumstances that are required for such to happen. Also it would require a weapon like an axe (which the vikings are well known for using).Sword != axe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 22:03:06 GMT
It doesn't actually tell us the mechanics by which he did it. I don't doubt that it is possible but there are extenuating circumstances that are required for such to happen. Also it would require a weapon like an axe (which the vikings are well known for using). Actually, it's VERY hard to cut a free standing dowel or simply a target that has some give-away with an axe. Axes are great for fixed, heavy targets (yes, a head counts) but not for lighter, moving targets like a spear (-shaft). I've found it impossible to cut tatami with an axe and especially a standing 1" pole... with my swords, it's rediculously easy however. So, I'm pretty sure that you can't cut a spear shaft with an axe during a fight. You might break it, but I doubt you will. It has a pretty small head the axe not a 30" blade like a sword. So good luck hitting such a moving target with a 5" long blade on a long shaft.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 6:20:38 GMT
If you grab the shaft and bring your axe down at the right angle, two blows would cut through it, unless you were extremely strong or had a heavy axe then it would probably only take one. I have never broken a polearm with an axe during sparring but hitting it, not really an issue, bind it right with the shield and lock it in a rigid position and a good blow would smash it depending on the wood. Hell if you locked it up with your weapon you could smash it with your shield again depending on the wood. If you aren't used to fighting with an axe I can see why you'd say that but quite honestly, why the hell would I attack the weapon when I can brain the guy with my axe?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 16:00:41 GMT
Grab the shaft? Doesn't work if you have a shield or a heavy two handed weapon. It would work though, I agree, but it would also work with a sword, even if you don't grab the shaft. But you're right, I've NO experience in axe fighting, I much prefer a good sword, so if I'm wrong just tell me and explain why.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 16:30:04 GMT
I just saw "Red Cliff." Lots of swords, shields, and polearms. There was no cutting of spearshafts, but plenty of grabbing and snapping. Probably not very historically accurate, but it was entertaining!
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