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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 1:04:08 GMT
My apologies as well for straying from the original intent of this thread.
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Post by Mune on Nov 3, 2009 14:11:09 GMT
I too will be choosing an arming sword sometime within the next six months or so (my first real sword) so I'll jump in on the conversation rather than start my own thread. I'm looking for something between a short and 'standard' sized one-hander, blade length between (roughly) 24" and 28". Here's what I've been considering so far, with some comments on each: Note: if you see a space within the first word of each hyperlink as I do, it was not intended and I'm not sure why it's there. I did not place an unnecessary space where it appears. It could just be my browser though, so if things appear normally, disregard this.Windlass Type XIVBlade length seems perfect for what I'm looking for, and the POB sounds excellent (I prefer better handling over sheer slash-ability). Nice big pommel to help the POB shift towards the hand. However, the grip seems short and the leather wrap seems plain and glossy (poorer grip maybe?). The dramatic taper from hilt to tip is a bit of a tossup for me as well, since I know it shifts POB towards the hand but I'm not so big on the aesthetics of it. Plain leather sheath is also a downside (would prefer wood-core so I can actually use it) but I've yet to see a sub-$300 sword with a good scabbard. Darksword Medieval Knight SwordOn the longer end of the spectrum (given my desire for a semi-short sword). Grip looks great, and again with a nice big pommel to help POB. On that note, the less dramatic taper than the Windlass shifts the POB forward, but suits my aesthetic taste a bit better. Looks thin in the last 1/3rd of the blade though, not sure what to think about that. I don't know if this one comes with a scabbard. Valiant Armory Crecy SwordOn the shorter end of the spectrum. Smaller pommel makes me wonder, as looking at the design I'm thinking the POB is already shifted a bit forward due to the lack of taper. Might make handling a bit easier though (less pommel in the way). Lack of tapering in the blade looks good to me, but again will shift the POB forward. I'm not sure about the grip (wood?), as it looks not-so-grippy. Also seems to be lacking a fuller, and I'm not sure what to think about that either. So, what I'm looking for is some feedback in these three swords from people who own one, as well as suggestions for swords to add to my list of possibilities. I'm staying in the sub-$300 range, and again want to keep it between 24" and 28" blade length. Thanks for any feedback, and thanks to the original poster for starting this thread. I hope I can help us both choose a sword by adding my two cents to the discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 16:03:04 GMT
I interpret that as a very slight change in handling, if any. It sounds like they just made the point stouter, because on myarmoury it says that the swords cut almost just as well as the previous type X swords. Although many of the type XII swords were certainly more thrust oriented than others, I don't think that they have to handle much differently than the type X swords. Oakeshott categorization is fairly broad. But yes, I think that you are right Tom. I was just saying that the different handling probably is not a requirement. Actually, in my limited experience, there is a significant difference in handling. For starters, with more of the mass toward the grip, the Type XII is quicker on the strike as well as the recovery- with the shortened fuller, the point is, as Tom points out (pun intended), much more suited for the thrust. Mind you, you can thrust with a Type X- against unarmored targets it would excel, but against armor, the blade may not penetrate whereas a Type XII with the 'reinforced' point would make a better go at it. That's just very general; you have to understand that fighting style was also updated to combat the advancements in armor (and sword) so the way a 10th Century knight approached swordcombat would not necessarily be identical to that of a 12th or 13th C knight - I doubt their fighting styles would be identical, as the later knight would take advantage of the increased offensive capabilities of the Type XII. It would be interesting to see how those respective knights fought one another so we could see the differences in styles at work. On an aside, I think I agree with Tom on the first-gen 303S...more of a Type XI. That's what I'm calling it from now on.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 3, 2009 16:19:15 GMT
Mune, of the swords you list the ONLY one I would personally buy would be the Windlass. the Valiant sword is one of their old models which all have a very poor reputation unlike their new lines of signature and practical cutters. I am not a fan of DSA but it sounds like you may be. you mention that the last 1/3 of the blade looks thin to you and you don't like a lot of taper. the problem you are going to run into is the well made swords in the size you want are going to have that taper to them because the types of sword that tend to be that short tend to also be from times when thrusting was important and so the swords were shaped that way to get into the chinks of armor. the only swords that will likely be that short and not taper are those made with no regard for historical accuracy or the study and understanding needed to make a good performing sword. the windlass XIV is a really good sword in most ways. ok you might want to re-grip it but it's current grip is ok and is not too short. have you considered this: www.kultofathena.com/product~item~IP7032~name~Generation+2+Henry+V+Sword.htm it meets you length requirement but again is strongly tapered and has no fuller (which it should not have but I mention it because you seem to like fullers) or have you considered a Falchion? here's a Windlass model I hear good things about: www.kultofathena.com/product~item~500204~name~Medieval+Falchion.htm
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 21:38:52 GMT
From what Mune says, it sounds like he would probably like the VA Bristol. Unfortunately, it's higher priced than what he wants.
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Post by Mune on Nov 3, 2009 23:34:19 GMT
Tom K. Thanks much for the detailed reply, I'll definitely take your opinion into account (that's what I'm here for after all, expert advice). I'll clarify a bit on a few points:
This being my first real sword, I don't have any particular affinity for one brand or another as of yet. I'd be interested to see why you're not so much of a DSA fan, but perhaps that's better left for a private message (or not, either way). I'm new to the forum, so any information about ups and downs of particular brands will certainly be helpful in deciding.
Regarding the tapering of swords, what you said makes sense regarding the historical accuracy of a tapered blade. What I meant to convey was that I somewhat like the looks of a non-tapered blade better, but would prefer the POB positioning and weight distribution provided by a tapered blade (closer to the hand). So, a balance between the two would probably be my preference, or, aesthetics be damned I could just get a highly tapered blade like the Windlass. When it comes down to it, the way it handles is more important to me than how it looks anyway. I just like the look of a narrow blade, and a strong taper makes it look like it's a half-broadsword.
The Gen2 Henry V Sword is indeed one I was considering when my list of options was less narrowed down, but I decided that I wasn't a fan of the crossguard, and the 3+3/8" grip seems painfully short for a 27" blade.
I haven't developed a first-hand opinion of fuller vs non-fuller yet of course, but I think (as you mention) I probably would rather have one than not on my first sword. The lower weight and better flexibility (perhaps I'm wrong on the second point though) make me think I might prefer to have a fuller than not. Feel free to elaborate on why I might not want one, or vice-versa.
I'll probably be getting a Falchion down the line, as a 3rd or 4th sword by my guess. I want my first one to be a short-ish arming sword. Second one will probably be a two-hander longsword. Just personal preference, but thanks for the link as I hadn't found any Falchions in my previous searching as yet.
Thanks again for the detailed response. It's interesting to finally meet (kind of, anyway) people who like to think and talk about swords.
Jonathan
The Bristol does indeed look very nice and fits my general outline quite well. I had kindof set that idea aside, partly due to the price, but also because I couldn't seem to find much information about it. Oh, and no sharpening option either (from AoV anyway, I don't know if others might offer it). Thanks for reminding me about that one though, I may have to reconsider or do some more research on it at least.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 23:41:18 GMT
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 4, 2009 2:13:51 GMT
Mune, I'll answer that publically, it's no secret I'm not a fan of DSA. I don't like my swords as heavy as DSA tends to make their swords with little to no distal taper (not profile taper which you can see easily in pictures) which I also don't like. in short, they tend to be too heavy and clunky for my tastes. DSA swords also come blunt and are notoriously hard to sharpen. for these reasons I tend to not reccomend them to new folks.
the Windlass would need sharpening too but windlass swords are a lot easier to sharpen.
the best arming sword in our price range is the Valiant Armory AT303 practical arming sword. it is longer than your preference but has less taper and should fit your preferences in that way. it has great handling characteristics and is fast and light (the ones they have out now are, the first generation of 303 were a bit heavy but they fixed that)
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Post by Mune on Nov 4, 2009 3:51:34 GMT
ChrisA Thanks for the clarification regarding the sharpening, as well the links to the reviews. It's nice to see that not every review is flawless (which would make them seem fake) and that the company stands behind what they sell. I will definitely be considering the Bristol knowing as such (if I end up wanting to invest a bit more in my little hobby, which I just might). One question I have about it still, if you happen to know the answer. Is that beautiful scabbard it comes with a wood-core one? I've read that leather ones make the sword rust, so I wouldn't want to get such a nice scabbard just to end up not using it.
Tom K. The AT303S was indeed another sword I was considering previously. I eventually decided to remove it from my list of possibilities based on two (rather minor) factors. The first being that it's a bit longer than I would like. I'm not a real big person, to be honest, and a blade at 31.25" long would be more of a 'bastard sword' (hand-and-a-half) for me. The second factor, which is very minor indeed, was I didn't like the aesthetics of the guard as much. I prefer crossguards which are angled towards the blade. The wooden scabbard, decent price and good reputation of the 'practical' series might make me reconsider, though.
Thanks again guys for your help.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2009 4:10:40 GMT
The Valiant Armoury Signature series doesn't mess around--the Bristol scabbard is wood core with Texas leather, tooled and died in-shop, designed by Christian Fletcher (the best in the business when it comes to scabbards and belts) and including a suspension system and belt. I'm pretty sure you would use it. The Practical series also has very nice scabbards, though not as fancy looking. The AT303S has the same quality wood core scabbard, plainly covered but nicely done. I'm in the market for an Arming Sword as my next purchase myself, and the Bristol is currently at the tippy-top of my list. Though I might have to put it off and scrape my dough together to buy an SBG fantasy bastard sword instead. I doubt I'll have the money ready by the end of the year, but I'd really like to have one. I've got some similar looking swords and fantasy pieces already, but that project's a bit near and dear to me. To get back on topic, however, I don't think you can go wrong with the suggestions in this thread. Pick what seems to suit your interests and budget.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 4, 2009 4:38:48 GMT
Mune, I understand you not wanting a longer sword but I think you'd be surprised at how easy the 303 would work for you. at just over 2 pounds they are realy light. and their edges are great right out of the box. pretty much everyone loves the bristol if you can spend that much you won't go wrong getting it. the shorter arming swords aren't well represented in our price range yet so I'm afraid you'll have to compromise somewhere. your choices so far are: DSA knight: right size, blunt, hard to sharpen, may be heaver than you like (would be for me) VA Signature Bristol: more expensive than you want but has pretty mch everything VA at303: too long for your preference but a very good sword Gen2 henry V: not really your style I can't comment on handling as I don't know it well. maybe good but gen2 has a rep of being heavy too. Windlass XIV: hard to find, poor scabbard, not your ideal shape, needs sharpening, excellent performance sword Valiant Armoury Crecy: just don't man, please just don't.
sadly there is no exact fit for you so I gues you have to start working with priorities. figure out which are the most important features for you and get the sword that has the most of them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2009 6:12:23 GMT
I'm going to agree with Tom on the 303 issue. As a proud owner I can safely say that this is in no way, shape or form a 'hand and a half' sword. It is a true blue arming sword and damn beautiful and spritely one at that. I wholeheartedly recommend this fantastic blade
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Post by Mune on Nov 4, 2009 13:58:49 GMT
Alright, so far I've narrowed my search down (again) to the following:
Windlass Type XIV - If I want it good and short, if it's still available when I can get one, and if I decide the dramatic profile taper is acceptable. Leather scabbard is a minus, and will effectively mean that I wont use the scabbard.
VA AT303S - First another question; If the name ends in an S, is it different from than if it does not? I haven't seen any listings for an AT303 without an S at the end. Not sure what the S might be. Anyway, I'll choose this one if I decide that the Windlass profile taper is too much, if the extra length is acceptable, and I might consider modifying or changing the crossguard on it. Grip seems better than the Windlass, the 'practical' sword line has a great reputation, and it comes with a wooden scabbard which I'd use. At only about 2 Lbs (I didn't realize it was so light) the extra length may be less of an issue. I'll be researching this one some more to see if it's a good fit.
VA Signature Bristol - Thanks to the help of you guys, I'm now highly considering this fine looking blade. Perfect length, very nice and usable (wood-core) scabbard, and the interesting grip and pommel look quite functional to me. Good POB without as much of a profile taper as the Windlass. Costs a bit extra though, but it may well be worth it to get a more-or-less 'perfect' match for me. As I'm not the type of person who goes and buys swords every other day (and likely wont get my second for years afterward), I may well spend the extra cash for this sword as my first one.
My list of options may well change between now and whenever I decide I can afford one, but this seems like a good list to me (thanks to you guys for helping me out). As mentioned, I will be waiting a bit before I make a purchase, so I still have some time to decide. I recently picked up a pair of wooden wasters (one for me, one for my unlucky opponent whoever it may be). I would like to become proficient with handling and sparring with a sword before I take the plunge and buy a fully-sharpened, potentially lethal weapon. I fully respect the fact that swords are not toys, and I feel that I am not yet worthy of a real sword. That, and I can't really afford to be spending frivolously at the moment. My wife and I are having a boy in February, so I'm trying to save my extra cash.
To Tom K. and Chris B regarding the AT303: Glad to hear such good things about the AT303, I've added it to my list of options as you see. I didn't realize it was so light, not sure how I missed that part. How difficult would it be to find a replacement crossguard, or to modify the existing one to have a curve? Regarding the length and my hesitation regarding it, I may just be overreacting to past experiences. Most of the 'wall hangers' I currently have seem too long for my taste, not that I swing them around much (I'll be pawning them when I get my real sword, perhaps to help finance it).
Also as mentioned, I'm likely a smaller person than the two of you so the extra length may be more awkward for myself than the average person. I'm only about 5'7", and wafer-thin, so to speak (I like to think of myself as 'wiry', as I'm still rather fit despite my emaciated appearance). Anyway, a while ago I had measured my wall hangers and decided that something with a blade 28" or less would be the best fit, so I'm trying to stick to that little rule I set for myself. My favorite sword is a Tai-Chi sword with a 26" blade a friend got me years ago, which is unfortunately made of stainless steel.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2009 15:27:59 GMT
Gen2 Henry: Mike handled one and said it handles very nicely and cuts even better. He did a hell of a cutting vid ;D Don't forget the H/T EMSHS or Norman. Both are very good swords, you might want to check if they fit your bill. Many people consider the EMSHS to have the best blade on any single handed sword in this price range. The Norman is similar I reckon.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 4, 2009 16:25:54 GMT
thanks for the info on the Gen2 Chenessfan I didn't realize Mike had done that. if Mike says it handles well, then I believe it.
I would like to dispel the myth that leather scabbards are crap. it's true that the plain leather scabbards by companies like Windass are not very attractive and there have been some cases where the sword inside one rusts. but here's the thing: as long as you keep it dry a leather scabbard can serve as a decent storage method. once you get some water inside that sucker though look out.
on being a small guy, I don't think 5' 7" is too small for a full size arming sword, especially one as light as the 303.
about the S: it means "sharp" there is also a 303b model that is "Blunt" and designed as a training sword. the "S" model is much more popular.
as for the hanwei Tinker swords I didn't suggest them because they did not fit his desires very well and they have some issues. I do still believe the EMSHS has the best designed single handed BLADE in our price range but the rest of it needs some help. I think the EMSHS is a better fit for guys who either have some experience working on swords or who are willing to spend the extra $$ to get Sonny and crew to fix it up
speaking of Sonny and crew if you go to Valiant Armoury's web site and get on their forum and talk to Sonny you can get him to cutsomize a 303s for you in whatever configuration you like. they have different crosguards they can do and different pommels just tell Sonny what you like and ask what he can do, he's pretty good about working with folks. you may end up paying a tad more if you ask for a lot of changes but a lot of things he will do at no cost the way I understand it. if you want a forward curved guard I think they can do that. this is another reason the 303 and 304 are such great swords for people new to swords: you can get what you want easier and you know you are getting high quality stuff. Sonny has really turned the sub $300 Euro sword market on its ear.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2009 20:54:47 GMT
The scabbard for my Windlass type XIV wasn't that bad for being all leather. They used a very thick, rigid leather and it was plenty tight enough. I still replaced it with a wood-core one as soon as I could though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2009 21:40:17 GMT
I wouldn't worry about being slightly small when it comes to handling the 303s, Mune. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how light she is (light but authoritive mind you ). Keep up the good questions!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2009 23:02:43 GMT
Lunaman, the Bristol will always be available, but the SBG fantasy sword will not. Oh, and regarding the scabbards on the VA practicals, I will say this - I own a practical longsword (304S) which is the two handed version of the 303S arming sword. The scabbard is a nice wood-core scabbard with attractive leather, but it does not fit the sword at all. The blade rattles in the scabbard and slides out if tilted at an angle. I will probably not wear it, because the scabbard does not hold the sword well.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 4, 2009 23:32:55 GMT
I have been hearing this as a common complaint with the new leather work I wonder if Sonny is working on correcting this or if he is still unaware it is a problem. . . I'd bet he's going to fix it. that's his way.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2009 1:16:16 GMT
I hope that he does fix the scabbard problem, because it is a shame that such a nice scabbard is close to useless.
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