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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2009 23:01:55 GMT
Let's say, for example we have two swords fairly of similar size, weight, and design, but sword A balances 2 inches from the guard while sword B balances 4 inches from the guard. If a relatively strong person were to use both, would sword B have more cutting/shearing power than sword just because of its more forward balance? Or would it just be less maneuverable?
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Post by enkidu on Oct 29, 2009 23:37:22 GMT
The more the POB is far from the guard the faster the blade will enter in contact with the object you are striking. The closest the POB is from the guard the easiest the sword will be to handle, particularely during recovery.
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Post by ShooterMike on Oct 30, 2009 1:23:03 GMT
You can see this effect clearly with pommel nut construction and two different weight pommels. Take a properly set-up sword with a 4" PoB and put a heavier pommel on it. The handling and performance will change drastically. Of course there are other issues at play in making a good sword. Blade harmonics are at least as important to me as balance. Turning points... points of rotation, are also pretty darned important.
For me, 4-5" PoB is just about a perfect balance of speed, numbleness and power in a 29-32" single hand sword. Any single hand sword with a 2" PoB had better be a sparring blunt for me. I could never cut with it and the point would wander all over the place and be easily displaced.
Sparring blunts are frequently built with very close PoBs exactly so they WON'T have much in the way of impact power. That way they are safer to use in sparring.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 30, 2009 2:10:06 GMT
I'm not much of a thruster but the 2" POB sword should in theory have better point control than the 4" POB and be better suited to thrusting. otherwise, I agree with Mike 100%.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2009 8:04:42 GMT
If the sword has the same mass, the further out POB = more mass in the blade, which means more impact power as has already been mentioned. If the blade is thicker, this may decrease cutting power... edge geometry/sharpness all make a big difference, but if the increased mass = a more stiff blade this may be a decent trade off (e.g. katana are sharp and stiff but quite thick when compared to euros).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2009 14:32:29 GMT
Further out the POB the more angular momentum you get.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2009 14:45:47 GMT
Let's say, for example we have two swords fairly of similar size, weight, and design, but sword A balances 2 inches from the guard while sword B balances 4 inches from the guard. If a relatively strong person were to use both, would sword B have more cutting/shearing power than sword just because of its more forward balance? Or would it just be less maneuverable? Actually, it's close to impossible to have two swords of similar size, weight and design behave very differently. A can only balance at 2" if it has a heavier pommel/crossguard or a lighter blade than B, so they aren't similar anyways. In short, a close POB makes handling easier but the sword doesn't hit with as much force as a sword with a POB far out. So B should theoretically cut better, but in reality it depends on a huge amout of factors. Skill, target, ...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2009 15:26:38 GMT
The OP stated 'for example' - that both swords had similar dimensions (weight, size, design), the POB was further out on one - which would be the better cutter is the salient question here.
Having a POB 2" out means you'd have more point control, making handling easier- but you sacrifice some power from the cutting stroke; the opposite is true for a POB further out- less point control but definitely more of the mass is in the cut.
All else being equal, sword B would be a more formidable cutter. Better? That's a personal preference sort of thing- a good swordsman can cut with just about anything.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2009 2:34:08 GMT
And it´s not just about the PoB...mass distribution plays a very important role in this as well...example... M-----------M -------M-M--- M=mass of some sort...both can balance at exactly the same point but they will behave very differently...this is an example somebody else gave in this forum but I can´t remember who or where so instead of a nice picture, you get my cruddy ascii art hehe. Also if the sword isn´t harmonically balanced, you will find it pretty much impossible to cut well with it. When I replaced the handle on my hanwei tinker bastard sword, the handle weight too much and ruined the harmonics of the sword...and when I reduced the handle down to close to the orginal handle weight, the harmonic balance was back and it cut well again .
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 31, 2009 3:06:26 GMT
Cold Napalm is exactly right here. there's a LOT more to how a sword handles that just point of balance and over-all weight. mass distribution is a huge factor.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2009 20:39:18 GMT
I think that the further the PoB from the gaurd, the more momentum and power you will have but once you get past a certain point, the sword wont cut quite as well. I could be wrong about that but...
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 2, 2009 23:41:11 GMT
lgarretto, you are right but it's much more complicated than just that. there's a lot more going on in a sword than simply POB vs. overall weight.
but POB and overall weight certainly play their parts
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 17:43:14 GMT
Doesn't mass distribution have a hand in the PoB as well as the PoC? With more mass toward the tip, your PoB is also forced outward, or am I reading that wrong?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 3, 2009 20:04:44 GMT
true more mass toward the tip will tend to pull the POB forward but not if it is balanced with another lump of mass further back if X marks a focused point of mass the "swords" below they all would balance at the same point but none of them would handle or act at all like any of the others. --xx---xx-----> xx-------xx---> x--------x-----> --x-----x------> the ones with single x's indicate that less mass is lumped in one place but to keep the weight the same that weight would be evenly distributed along the entire sword.
mass distribution also effects center of percussion but I will not try to explain that as I will surely botch it and end up telling you something wildly inaccurate.
there's also a thing caled a "Turning Point" which is a rotational center for the sword and that is also effected by the mass distribution at the same time as COP and POB. a sword with a POB 7 inches out with a good turing point near the tip will handle MUCH better than a sword with a 4" POB but a turning point out past the tip of the sword. one sword will feel light but dead while the other sword will feel heavy but nible and alive and much better. I'm sure there's much more to consider but we are scraping the bottom of the barrel of my understading.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 20:09:10 GMT
Well, yes, PoB and weight isnt everything but I was simply basing that statement off "if they were"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 20:09:37 GMT
As in for their part
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 21:04:19 GMT
'All else being equal' - the simple answer to your question is yes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 21:11:52 GMT
Dude, you gotta start being more specific with your questions. The "how does it affect" qualifier is so broad as to be almost unanswerable. The easy cop-out answer is to say that "a further out point of balance generally will make a more effective cut but be less easy to control, and a close POB will give the blade more control but less authoritative cutting" but even that statement is misleading. There's LOADS that determine how a blade performs in the cut, edge geometry, sharpness, distal taper, profile taper, angle of attack, speed of stroke, fullers, ridges, bevels, distribution of mass in the guard and hilt....etc, and a far out POB does not necessarily a great cutter make, nor does a close one make a sword handle well. Even if you had two identical swords and wanted to change the "balance" to see how it affects the cut, you would have to change a whole bundle of other elements in order to change the balance at all, and use the blades differently in the cut, so it can't be answered in a cut-and-dry sort of way. "Balance" is a pretty general term as well. Do you mean the Point of Balance when the sword is still, or the overall distribution of mass in the blade, or the perceived weight when the sword is in motion? Since you asked in the European Medieval and Renaissance Swords section, I think your question is mostly about double-edged straight Western blades, so ----> here's a good article about the physics of moving a European sword and how various factors influence the performance and balance of the blade: www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htmIt made it easier for me to wrap my head around some of the concepts of balance and handling, and the amount of energy transferred into the cut. The diagram at the bottom of the first page is especially pertinent to your question.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 3, 2009 22:05:48 GMT
yup that's a great article, really opened my eyes to a ot of things and there's still more for me to learn from it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2009 16:50:27 GMT
sorry, Im not very good with words. I just try my best and thats all
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