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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 4:57:31 GMT
So on August 31 I went ahead and purchased one of the DSA "Seconds, On Sale!" Squires via ebay auction. (Please note, a couple weeks before the SBG free shipping deal went into effect....it figures ) My total with shipping was $185, not a bad deal I thought, for a sword that retails in the $250 range. The auction stated that the sword did have a geometric defect to the guard but would be normal otherwise. I thought who cares? So my sword showed up a couple weeks later, I took it out, looked at it briefly, then put it aside for later. The last week I have been off work after having some surgery done, but the last couple days I've had time to really look it over. Yeah, the geometry is off on the guard. Presumably, they knew about it when they were finishing it off, because the scallops on the edges are not even. At all. This looks....odd....but okay, it's a seconds part. While degreasing the blade I noticed a few things. The blade isn't so much polished as it is finished smooth. There are numerous long scratches and several scuffs and rough areas, including one bad one that will need to be sanded and buffed to repair. I think it was banged into something pretty stoutly to do this. Clearly this blade saw the buffer till it was shiny....but not polished, about to DSA's usual standard from what I read. I also noted the fuller is pretty....ummmm.....wavy, yeah, that's the right word. It sort of meanders down the blade, narrower here, wider there, left here, right there.....and sort of peters out at the end....at different points on the two sides. The spine of the blade sort of runs out to the end of the blade....not at the point, but at the end, which is not at the point if you take my meaning. The edges of the blade vary from 1 mm to actually sharp in places....very inconsistent, and it's going to make a tough sharpening job that much harder. I'll need to draw file and re-profile this incredibly hard blade. Oh, well, winter is coming. The pommel was clearly put on by a trainee, as he seems to have had difficulty actually hitting the peen, missing and striking the pommel itself several times, really dinging it up cosmetically. To add insult to injury? It's on at a 15 degree cant. Yes.....it's crooked! There's some kind of gunk (adhesive from the grip?) on the end of the crossguard that has resisted my feeble efforts to remove so far. The scabbard is, well, as DSA scabbard, about what I expected. This experience has sort of made me wonder about DSA "fit and finish" standards. The blade is really hard and tough, but not very well finished and is going to require re-shaping. The grip is nicely done, but the pommel being assembled at a cant is something I can't really fix without major surgery. I'll also be removing some meat from the front end of the blade. distal taper? HA! More like dismal taper. My POB is a full seven inches from the front of the guard.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 7:25:11 GMT
A 7" PoB on a single-hander! Jesus! Fit and finish are things that improve with the price you pay for a quality sword. The difference between say, a Windlass and an Albion is like night and day, so it's safe to say that you can expect a sub-$200 sword to have it's share of issues. Some manufacturers are above status quo and do a better job, and some high dollar guys do worse, so it will really end up being your decision on what is acceptable to you. Do you like the sword and are you willing to work with it? If not, then perhaps the DSA is not for you. If you do like it and want to make it yours for the keeping, then get to filing. You have alot of work to do. That PoB should be about 3".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 15:07:54 GMT
Yeah, it's sort of nice, and I do like the design of the wire wrapping on the grip and truthfully it's not a terrible price for a really good blade. I have a belt grinder and I'm not inexperienced with grinding knives and sharp things, so I can work this down into a nice piece. It's good steel, well tempered; a new file simply slides off. Steel this good and tempered this well does not need to be anywhere near this thick. This is easy, just a belt grinder, a tray of water to cool the blade, time and patience (and lots of belts). Still not sure if I will be able to rotate the pommel without grinding the peen off, but I'll try. This gives me an excuse to finally build that buffer I've been wanting, too. ;D I know the money end comes in in fit and finish, and I guess I had higher expectations from a Canadian company rather than one based in India or the Orient. Of course Windlass can turn out a nice product when they want to, and I'm sure that DSA could do better, I don't know if this is a normal level of finish for them or not. I do know it would make me really question spending $250-350 on one of their regular production pieces if this is the standard they hold to. I know that Valiant Armory, Cold Steel and Generation 2 all hold roughly comparable price points.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 16:34:26 GMT
Those 'factory seconds' are going to come with defects, that's why he dropped the price like he did. Since these pieces couldn't pass QC they kept them, and are now selling them at a discount.
If the blade is as good as you say, it was still a worthwhile purchase...a little elbow grease will go a long way to endearing you to it, what with the blood, sweat, and tears you will have invested by the time you're done.
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Post by skystone on Sept 28, 2009 19:48:15 GMT
Hmmmmm indeed. Though you bought the sword knowing it had cosmetic issues there should never be any issues concerning structural integrity.....crooked pommel? Can you explain more about that, perhaps a picture even? Is the tang bent or the pommel drilled of center? I guess it remains to be seen, if DSA is possibly trying to unload its seconds and defects through the sale offer to SBG members. I sure hope not and if so, there is going to be a load of reviews here on SBG that aren't necessarily praising D.S.A.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 28, 2009 22:36:17 GMT
Skystone, even though I have made no secret that I'm not a fan of DSA swords, I would be pretty surprised to hear that the sale they offered us was a ruse to get rid of seconds. no, I just don't see that as being in-character for them. I'd not worry about that. this sword sounds to me like it's issues are a lot worse than your typical DSA sword, though I would have hoped all those issues would have been listed on the original auction. they did, at least, make it clear that this was a factory second so there's at least some arguement that it was identified as a possible problem. hmmmmm I'm not sure what to think about this. I don't think I would be happy with that fuller and especially that pommel when discribed as "otherwise normal". had to say not having seen it though. well, I hope it works out and turns into a real gem. let us know please
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 23:26:32 GMT
I hope that wasn't directed at me because I was not trying to imply Eyal was using a ruse- I thought it quite clear that there would be some cosmetic issues but that these swords were still serviceable. Otherwise selling them as anything but wallhangers is misleading at best.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2009 0:38:55 GMT
...pictures....please!
I had seen the SBG DSA discount and also saw the Ebay auction, but held off getting one because I had just ordered my VA Bristol.
To quote the current ebay listing "aesthetic flaws...and guards are not perfectly centered ....The blades and scabbards are in perfect condition. The swords are combat ready." Although I wasn't concerned about an off-center guard or some minor "aesthetic flaws", I saw no indication of this level of issues. ....not trying to cause trouble, just adding my observations....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2009 2:48:20 GMT
Well, I guess there's a reason why they're selling those pieces on ebay, at the reduced price. I noticed on the SBG members sale page, they came right out and mentioned that the Black Knight and Squire models have "cosmetic defects", so I don't think they're being underhanded here, or at least I'd like to think not. I initially ordered a black knight through the sale, but I saw the disclaimer after the fact and got spooked, so I had them switch my order to the Medieval Knight, which had no mention of issues. I'll have to see what the deal is when it gets to me. I don't think they'd try to pawn off their rejects on us.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2009 8:51:20 GMT
Umm it doesn't say that anywhere on the sale page or in his posts as far as I can tell, if you can show us the section that you are talking about please so. The only thing I can find is talk of a regular blade and also the fact that the Black Knight is hot threaded and not peened.
Edit- Oh I see it now... crap, I ordered one and it is arriving today I believe, we will see how it goes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2009 22:21:06 GMT
Just an update, my sword has arrived and it isn't too bad. The fuller goes crooked near it end and there seems to be quite a few hammer marks, nothing that couldn't be fixed when I get around to it. Other than that the sword is much lighter than I was expexting and the gaurd, pommel and grip are all in excellent shape. The scabbard is the usual DSA affair, so if anyone is looking for some good projets or better swords now is the time to buy.
PS- I'm in Canada so for $185 Canadian dollars after taxes (13%) you can get a gunctional sword with fittings, seems like a pretty good deal to me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2009 20:16:42 GMT
Good to hear you didn't get a lemon. I was afraid of getting one with a goofy pommel, or an off-center guard, so I just figured I'd shell out the extra $50 and go for the Knight. Looks like you got a good one though!
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Post by skystone on Oct 20, 2009 18:25:34 GMT
I was sent a defective Squire through the SBG sale. I am kind of shocked that DSA would market something that should have been scrapped and market it here on SBG. There are flaws and defects all over it. The most astonishing defect is the blade that is a whole inch from true at the tip from the guard. It is far beyond a cosmetic issue that I would attempt to fix. I have written them and await their reply. I am going to cover my bases and see if I am protected through Pay Pal. They are in Canada but used US based shipping so fraud should apply. I am going to see if they are listed on the Better Business Bureau to. Never in my wildest dreams did I think they would send me garbage.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 22:14:59 GMT
Do keep in mind that it could have been damaged in shipping.
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Post by shadowhowler on Oct 20, 2009 22:35:18 GMT
I was sent a defective Squire through the SBG sale. I am kind of shocked that DSA would market something that should have been scrapped and market it here on SBG. There are flaws and defects all over it. The most astonishing defect is the blade that is a whole inch from true at the tip from the guard. It is far beyond a cosmetic issue that I would attempt to fix. I have written them and await their reply. I am going to cover my bases and see if I am protected through Pay Pal. They are in Canada but used US based shipping so fraud should apply. I am going to see if they are listed on the Better Business Bureau to. Never in my wildest dreams did I think they would send me garbage. Yowza. If your that unhappy with the sword, I suspect Eyal will take care of you. I have always found him to be a stand up guy.
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Post by skystone on Oct 22, 2009 23:02:00 GMT
I was sent a defective Squire through the SBG sale. I am kind of shocked that DSA would market something that should have been scrapped and market it here on SBG. There are flaws and defects all over it. The most astonishing defect is the blade that is a whole inch from true at the tip from the guard. It is far beyond a cosmetic issue that I would attempt to fix. I have written them and await their reply. I am going to cover my bases and see if I am protected through Pay Pal. They are in Canada but used US based shipping so fraud should apply. I am going to see if they are listed on the Better Business Bureau to. Never in my wildest dreams did I think they would send me garbage. Yowza. If your that unhappy with the sword, I suspect Eyal will take care of you. I have always found him to be a stand up guy. So as a sat and gazed down this warped, crooked, bent blade I felt pity for it. He must have been ridiculed by all other swords in the shop. Then I saw the picture of my Great Uncle, who was my Great Uncle and it made sense in a second. This sword might be good for a matador. With the blade laying flat, handle off the edge, curve up, it is half an inch from the tabletop at the tip, not to mention the bend at the ricasso. Anyone hunting water buffalo and needs a back up there is a sword with a purpose for you. There is no BBB listing for Darksword Armory so I will make one and post a report to aid anyone who desires to see if they are desirable. Looks like the owner operator of DSA is dealing with red china and my problem is not worth the time. Small price to pay for knowledge and truth. I wont be a return buyer.
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Post by enkidu on Oct 22, 2009 23:27:48 GMT
Dont jump on the trigger too fast, DSA has done more good things than bad, especially concerning their CS. Eyal will probably step up at some point, but they are in the end of their production run, so it may take a little while.
Then again, i would be pissed off to receive a sword as you describe it.
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Oct 22, 2009 23:45:10 GMT
This seems out of character for Eyal. He often goes the extra mile for his customers as has been documented here and other places. I know that Eyal recently posted that he was in China working on the finishing touches on the production run Enkidu referred to and that he was very busy. I think Enkidu's advice to give Eyal some more time to catch up on things here after his return from overseas is valid. He may be unaware of your situation and I would be very careful about smearing someone's good name without being certain of all the facts. Once you have spoken to Eyal directly then you will know where you stand and if your continued ire is still warranted. Obviously we are watching with interest.
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Post by septofclansinclair on Oct 23, 2009 1:25:22 GMT
Yowza. If your that unhappy with the sword, I suspect Eyal will take care of you. I have always found him to be a stand up guy. So as a sat and gazed down this warped, crooked, bent blade I felt pity for it. He must have been ridiculed by all other swords in the shop. Then I saw the picture of my Great Uncle, who was my Great Uncle and it made sense in a second. This sword might be good for a matador. With the blade laying flat, handle off the edge, curve up, it is half an inch from the tabletop at the tip, not to mention the bend at the ricasso. Anyone hunting water buffalo and needs a back up there is a sword with a purpose for you. There is no BBB listing for Darksword Armory so I will make one and post a report to aid anyone who desires to see if they are desirable. Looks like the owner operator of DSA is dealing with red china and my problem is not worth the time. Small price to pay for knowledge and truth. I wont be a return buyer. Skystone, The general rule of thumb is, "if you get a defective sword, return it and you'll get taken care of." By ANY manufacturer, unless it was indeed sold as a "seconds" product, with acknowledged defects. The proper procedure for dealing with receiving a defective product is not to jump on the BBB and leave a scathing review; it's not even going to be an accurate review. Contact Paul (from the SBG store, where you said you bought it) before you try something else drastic (like trying to make a case for fraud). There's no reason to get as worried as you seem to, I have known the SBG store and DSA to deal honourably with people when returns are warrented. And if you only sent DSA an email a couple days ago, there's no reason to panic yet - I know Eyal is on a business trip until next week so their customer service may be delayed. So buck up, and don't go into panic mode just yet. A good guide for handling defects when you receive a sword with some can be found here: www.armsofvalour.com/qcpolicy.html - most places (like SBG and DSA, I believe) have similar policies.
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Post by skystone on Oct 23, 2009 2:14:12 GMT
I think all legit businesses should be listed with the BBB. If you disagree then you must have ill intent, for I can think of no other reason. I am not sure you understand the BBB maybe. As for me paying international return shipping for a defect, Not a chance. This sword should have been thrown out of the shop (it looks like it was) or scraped. I am not the only person to get one either. So this is not a fluke. I am unhappy DSA called these cosmetic and not structural. Other than annealing and straightening the blade and putting a good quench hoping it wont warp again I see no other way to fix this sword. I thought of a roller press but this is a hard blade. This was just the most major problem with the sword. The other probs were similar to the original posters probs. One edge of my blade is flush with the handle the other hangs over the other side of the handle by just over a half an inch hahaha. I understand you give the maker the benefit of the doubt but when it comes down to it the autonomy of SBG as an entity for re-assurance has little they can do for something like this. So DSA isn't even listed with the BBB, now I will request that they are walla. It can only further to help them and consumers.
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