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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 23, 2009 0:42:37 GMT
No, not really... but I am paranoid after all so, I expect the worst.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 23, 2009 0:44:02 GMT
I have a question. What is a troll in reference to this newfangled web thingy? (not the thing under the bridge) Is it someone that lurks and just tries to stir up trouble? If so are we to blame for taking the bait? Is it worth the emotional energy to let "trolls" upset us. Just a thought Rob A 'Troll' in relation to the iNtErWeBz... is someone who likes to make controversal statments or arguments, or just say things they KNOW will tick people off or get their blood boiling, just to get a reaction and stir up the pot.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 0:54:31 GMT
Did I log into SFI by accident? I don't think thats a fair compression myself... I'm not bashing the guy because he does not like expensive swords or because he does not have training... I am saying when you join a new place... you don't make your first and ONLY two posts about how the new place you have joined is doing it all wrong and how 'We' need to change the way we do it. That would be like me joining the SCA tomorrow and then telling them, on that very first visit, that their style of combat is all wrong... or a get a job at Wallmat and I walk up to the managers the first day and say 'Hey, your system for stocking and innovatory is totally wrong, you should do it like this.' That is ridiculously presumptive... and if you think I'm an elitist for thinking so, well, I dunno what to tell you... I consider it bad manners to just walk in a place and go off the moment you set foot there. Gawd, you could the unintentional irony with a rusty falchion. This isn't a exclusive club or a workplace. Shadowfighter didnt break any forum rules. He started a mildly inflammatory topic that I took as misguided but legitimate. You, on the other hand, decided you would call him out as a troll or a sock puppet. But you're the expert on forum etiquette, i suppose. I'm so happy you've paid your dues and now feel like you can trash the newbs who offend your sensibilities. But a bigger man would have chuckled, patted the poor,misguided fool on the head and put a hand on his shoulder while saying "Very interesting. I, however, see things differently." Or used a bit of well placed sarcasm to knock someone of their high horse. BTW I've been here longer so maybe you'll do me the courtesy of listening to your forum elder and reflect on your behavior. Of course, daigoro's rules of netiquette are neither necessary or sufficient.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 23, 2009 1:02:25 GMT
Gawd, you could the unintentional irony with a rusty falchion. This isn't a exclusive club or a workplace. Shadowfighter didnt break any forum rules. He started a mildly inflammatory topic that I took as misguided but legitimate. You, on the other hand, decided you would call him out as a troll or a sock puppet. But you're the expert on forum etiquette, i suppose. I'm so happy you've paid your dues and now feel like you can trash the newbs who offend your sensibilities. But a bigger man would have chuckled, patted the poor,misguided fool on the head and put a hand on his shoulder while saying "Very interesting. I, however, see things differently." Or used a bit of well placed sarcasm to knock someone of their high horse. BTW I've been here longer so maybe you'll do me the courtesy of listening to your forum elder and reflect on your behavior. Of course, daigoro's rules of netiquette are neither necessary or sufficient. Wow... Well, sorry I got your undies in a bunch, but my point still stands, I think the guy is either a shell account or Troll of some form, because the whole vibe is just off, or just exceptional presumptions and rude. Thats my opinion, and I put it out there point blank. I get along with 95% of our community, I guess you are just going to have to fall in the 5% along with Alvin.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 1:54:06 GMT
Maybe it's just me but the voice that was talking inside my brain while I was reading the OP didn't seem arrogant at all. If we want to travel into speculation land, here goes: He probably just meant that he looked at the reviews, found a sword he thought he'd like and bought it. Then he was disappointed with the sword. Why was he disappointed? Could have been graded as a 5/5 omg buy now, sword and when he got it he just didn't like the fit. But regardless, I didn't find him rude or anything. Then again, I didn't look at his number of posts and weigh his value based on that number.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 23, 2009 1:57:03 GMT
He probably just meant that he looked at the reviews, found a sword he thought he'd like and bought it. Then he was disappointed with the sword. If that were the case, why would he not say it? It would give perspective to his opinion and certainly help make his case. I know I would mention that, if thats how it went down.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 2:33:01 GMT
I think the pro/con system's fine for our purposes.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 5:11:20 GMT
He probably just meant that he looked at the reviews, found a sword he thought he'd like and bought it. Then he was disappointed with the sword. If that were the case, why would he not say it? It would give perspective to his opinion and certainly help make his case. I know I would mention that, if thats how it went down. I have used sword reviews to decide which sword to buy. I would say that he left out his disappointment in the sword as to keep the thread on his intended topic rather then have it sidetracked by some comment like "Oh, I had that sword, I loved it, you must have gotten a bad one or something." Regardless, that is not the point. I believe he had some ideas that he wanted to present to the community and decided to do so and since he is a part of the community, he shouldn't be struck down so quickly. We were all Posts: 1 at some point.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 23, 2009 6:56:38 GMT
We were all Posts: 1 at some point. Absolutely. When I was a post 1... I did not jump in and say 'We need a better way to do reviews, how about this?' When I had, at that point, never DONE a review. Also... even if you ignore the weird tone and baring of his two posts, and the timing of them, the ideas themselves too me are not very good. There is more to how a sword cuts then its PoB and weight, there is also blade shape and geometry, edge shape and geometry... and many other factors that he does not mention and his ideas do not address. For thrusting, he talks about dropping a piece of meat on a sword... a useless test. That won't take the weight/mass of the sword into effect... just the shape of the tip and edge. When you thrust with a sword, the weight and mass of the sword come into play, as do a lot of other factors. You CAN'T make a sword review objective as it pertains to how they are used... because PEOPLE use them, not robots. Swords don't sit still and have meat dropped on them... they have to be handled, be swung, by human hands and human arms. Even hard stats don't always describe how a sword FEELS in hand... how the pommel acts in mid swing against your wrist, how the weight of the sword feels when you change directions with it... ...reviews are subjective, and thats a GOOD thing. He says he ignores the opinions in reviews and goes straight for that facts... what a waste! You can get the stats from the manufacturer, but they won't tell you how the sword feels in use. For that, you need PEOPLE. The opinions in the reviews are FAR more useful to me then the stat blocks... the stat blocks tell me nothing I didn't already know... the opinions tell me a great deal. Blegh.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 8:04:39 GMT
Oh I totally agree with you on the opinions, but as a first time sword buyer, I would like to have all the measurements of a blade avalible to me, like the length of the grip and blade. That way I can go over to my yard stick and kind of get a feel for how it will sit in my hand.
Granted, this information can be found across the internet, but sometimes that can be a pain.
Also, a quick note on stabbing stuff. Here is a great video done by Cold Steel with a guy using a variety of swords to stab thru a car's hood... should the need arise ;D And yeah, if we were just dropping the hood onto the swords, we'd find out how well the geometry pierces into metal, but towards the end he uses really big swords and they sink in with little effort.
At 1:12, would any of you happen to know what sword that is? The sword seemed to sink right in and I'm wondering if that is the sword or if that is just because the sword hit a place that was already stabbed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 8:12:29 GMT
Actually the idea of doing tests to compare swords more objectively isn´t a bad idea. The problem is that the OP doesn´t know enough to know what you actually have to do for such a comparison. The system he gave is too simple and in the end utterly useless. Now if we could con mythbusters into doing the test for us...well, then I think we can get more useful results. Not that their methodology isn´t sometimes flawed...but it sure will kick the living daylights out of what most of us can do at home. What he wants can be done...it just can´t be done outside of a lab since how many of us have access to labs with robotic arms? So yeah, leave it to the mythbusters.
Actually thats not a bad idea...we should all e-mail the mythbusters about it and have them do some tests for us.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 8:32:32 GMT
I wonder what it would take for mythbusters to lend SBG there robot arm... forever. =D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 8:35:10 GMT
I wonder if the robot arm could cut tatami or bamboo... might need a bit more draw in its cut...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 8:43:34 GMT
At 1:12, would any of you happen to know what sword that is? The sword seemed to sink right in and I'm wondering if that is the sword or if that is just because the sword hit a place that was already stabbed. I'm pretty sure that was the Cold Steel Grosse Messer. Here's an old review, that still uses the number ratings system /index.cgi?board=swordreviews&action=display&thread=2027&page=1#34549 And if the Mythbusters did a sword special episode I think all of my dreams would come true...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 9:56:52 GMT
I suppose that's the thing about talking on the net and not in person. We may misconstrue someone's lack of keyboard articulation into thinking they're being sarcastic, arrogant etc. I suppose smileys help sometimes in this regard. Still, I trust that the OP wasn't meaning to come off as being an arse.
ironic edit for spelling
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 10:02:43 GMT
I wonder what it would take for mythbusters to lend SBG there robot arm... forever. =D Well they are near where I live...in fact I have seen buster twice in real life. Maybe I could go have a little word with em about that hehe ;D .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 15:19:47 GMT
Oh I totally agree with you on the opinions, but as a first time sword buyer, I would like to have all the measurements of a blade avalible to me, like the length of the grip and blade. That way I can go over to my yard stick and kind of get a feel for how it will sit in my hand. Granted, this information can be found across the internet, but sometimes that can be a pain. Also, a quick note on stabbing stuff. Here is a great video done by Cold Steel with a guy using a variety of swords to stab thru a car's hood... should the need arise ;D And yeah, if we were just dropping the hood onto the swords, we'd find out how well the geometry pierces into metal, but towards the end he uses really big swords and they sink in with little effort. At 1:12, would any of you happen to know what sword that is? The sword seemed to sink right in and I'm wondering if that is the sword or if that is just because the sword hit a place that was already stabbed. Eh, I've driven my cheap pocket knife through a car door...not THAT impressive I would like to see some comparative reviews between similar swords, though, after both have been individually reviewed. M.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 16:07:16 GMT
some of your tests still sound rather subjective to me I'm afraid. for instance the meat-drop. what kind of meat? a one pound bit of cheap beef roast may be riddled with fat or tendon changing the resistance the meat will give the sword while a one pound cut of very lean and uniform meat like a Filet Mignon or NY Strip may be entirely different not to mention if some one uses pork or chicken that's going to totally change the density of the target. if you want a standard target for thrusting you need something man made so it is consistant no matter who uses it. things that come to mind are: a certain grade of styrofoam, ballistics gel, a block of balsa wood, a two liter soda bottle filled with water (hey we already use this most of the time), etc. Yes, you are right. Meat is not consistent. We need a consistent material to test it with. I think your last suggestion is probably the best. A plastic bottle filled with one litre of water can be dropped from a height of say 6 inches from the tip. Then we measure how deep the penetration. By itself, it won't mean much. But if you compare it with other swords, you can have a rough idea of how good a thruster the sword is.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 23, 2009 16:27:07 GMT
Welcome back swordfighter, I am assuming you are not the Sock-puppet or shell that has been speculated and if my assumptions are correct please forgive those who don't assume as I am.
this is a subject near and dear to us.
I have drop tested water bottles on swords before and I have to say that unless they are extraordinarily sharp the bottle tends to bounce off. dropping on the point is a LITTLE BIT more consistant than drop-testing on the edge, but not a LOT. the Hanwei Tinker Bastard sword that I recently reviewed would probably do pretty well in the drop thrust test but a sword like the AT303 or even 304 would not do well at all, yet one can thrust pretty effectively with these swords. also having the point up means a LOT of water will run down inside the hilt furniture. on a take-down hilt, that's not too bad since you just have to take it apart and clean the metal parts and let the grip core air-dry for a day or so (yuck no fun!)
I'm sorry to say it but I think what really counts is the opinion based on experience. sure, there are going to be a lot of reviews that are not up to the same level as our best reviews, but they can still be valuable. we encourage everyone who has a sword to review it even if it has been reviewed before. simply because with more information and opinion a clearer picture can be distilled. this may not work for you, you may be a very analytical scientific person. In that case I'm afraid there isn't much help.
case in point: Mythbusters have done a few tests on sword myths and even their excellent set-up was not really all that objective. I can't remember exactly my thoughts as I watched the shows on swords but I remember thinking that they really did not capture the true effectiveness of a sword let alone the feel and quality.
another thing to remember in the world of cheap (yup that's what sub $300 swords are) mass production swords two swords of a given model can and more often than not DO differ quite a bit.
Subjectivity can be useful. I suggest you start asking specific questions about specific swords. also tell us more about you so we can better understand you and where you are coming from.
do you have any swords currently? if so what do you think of them? if not what do you think you would like? talk to us man.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 16:39:32 GMT
You'd get more accurate results thrusting numerous swords through the same medium instead of 'drop-testing' meat onto the sword's tip to test 'thrustability'. Reviews are imperfect because people like us write them...and of course, we read them as well.
Maybe Mythbusters would be a good route to go but I don't really feel we need it. I don't agree that hard and fast facts/stats are all you need- truthfully, it'd be great to be able to handle a sword PRIOR to purchasing it but since that's next to impossible (unless you know the maker personally and/or are close enough to them that you can drop by for a site visit if they're so inclined) - unless you've got the money to fly/ride/drive to the maker to handle some stock, these reviews really are the next best thing.
Granted, your tastes will run different than other forumites, but that's good, because that's another perspective added to the mix that rounds out the overall picture, to me.
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