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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2009 3:35:53 GMT
I was at the Kansas City Renaissance Festival today. The organizers had a promo for this weekend that would give anyone a free pass upon presenting $200.00 in receipts from the Festival merchants. I knew that there were a few swordmakers there, so I did not expect to have any trouble hitting the $200 goal. Ahem! I'm not mentioning whose merchandise I looked at, and I don't know if any of those merchants are members of this forum, but I just could not find a sword of any style that looked anywhere near as nice, well made and well finished as what I can purchase from KOA for half their average asking price. Can you say "rough?" Hollow ground blade profiles? One maker had nice looking product, but lost me when he mentioned the full tang construction with a short piece of all-thread welded on the end of the "full tang" to thread the pommel on. I guess at least it wasn't a full rat tail. I would have loved to earn myself a free pass by bringing home a new sword from one of these makers, but please...... Heck, had the merchandise been of a little higher grade, I wouldn't have cared if there was a free pass incentive or not. Sorry if I offend anyone, but if I'm going to spend $450.00 for a sword, I don't want something that looks like it was made in someone's garage.
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Post by kidcasanova on Sept 14, 2009 4:06:03 GMT
Especially when you can but from Gus at that price! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2009 4:18:52 GMT
Isn't the little threaaded piece for a screw on pommel pretty common for euro swords? Quicker and easier than peening?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2009 4:56:44 GMT
Well, yeah, but the vendors at the KC ren-fest have never exactly had the best selection of blades. I guess the only one really worth hitting up in KC is Badger blades, always good for destroying a subaru... or not handling much like a historical sword. I really do wish they'd step up the quality of their blade vendors. Dang...
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 14, 2009 5:00:38 GMT
I've actually found very few sword-smiths at the RenFaires that make a product I would want more then say a Gen 2, DSA, Valiant Armoury, Hanwei/Tinker, or Kris Cutlery sword... just for a few examples. MOST of those smiths sales at the RenFaires go to noobs... people who just pop in and are most likely not even dressed for the event... but they decide 'Hey, I wouldn't mind have a sword, I'll go pick up one of those...' You see a lot of SaberSmith, Starfire, Badger Blades and other such wares... as well as a few less known smaller makes. Sometimes you find booths selling Windlass or Hanwei stuff, normaly MUCH more expensive then you can find online. I don't tend to buy weapons at the faires.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2009 5:03:59 GMT
I figure, faires are good places to get clothing. Sure, it'll be pricy-er than normal. But you'll be able to actually try it on make sure it fits and it's exactly what you want.
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Sept 14, 2009 11:13:21 GMT
Isn't the little threaaded piece for a screw on pommel pretty common for euro swords? Quicker and easier than peening? There are those that accept only peening as correct for swords but I believe the problem he referred to here is the guy said it had full tang construction with a piece of all thread welded on. If it was truly full tang construction there would be no weld, the threaded section would have been made from the end of the tang...........not attached/welded to it. Then there is the quality issues associated with the possibility of a bad/weak weld.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2009 11:15:49 GMT
Isn't the little threaaded piece for a screw on pommel pretty common for euro swords? Quicker and easier than peening? But it shouldn't be welded. And even than it's not that good as peening. Or hex nut.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Sept 14, 2009 11:53:34 GMT
A hex nut system can incorporate a welded rod, Luka. Screw on pommels have some disadvantages, yes, but also some advanages in some cases. Actually it will surprise you to learn that welding to attach the threaded rod, OR straight rod which may be peened or onto which the threads are later cut, has some distinct advantages over cutting it straight from the tang flatbar stock. For example - a thread cut straight from the tang flatbar stock is thus composed of High C steel - that is likely to become hardened on a forged or through hardened piece. One hopes it would later be tempered down to an appropriate temper/hardness. The point is that mild steel is always tougher than hardened steel when it comes to absorbing shock. Its softer, so it's gonna be less brittle. And thus it will bend rather than snap in the scary times of excessive shock, such as flubbing a cut. So there you have it, that rod is the smallest part and can be the weakest link in a sword - having the weight of almost half the sword concentrated on it's shoulder. And remember many (not all) peened swords do incorporate a skinny rod at the end of the tang which protrudes through the pommel, so its not just the nutted and screw ons. So as usual it's a case of don't be quick to assume anything. Whether it's welded, cut, peened, or threaded, these methods all exist because each one has benefits and disadvantages in certain circumstances. And there's always a right and wrong way to do anything. The only way you will know if your sword was done right or wrong is to be there when it's made I put this up just yesterday out of pure coincidence. It'll show you the best way I know to weld the rod at the end of the tang: /index.cgi?board=fable&action=display&thread=12237&page=1 You can see that adding a rod properly is not at all quicker or easier than peening. Neither is grinding down the tang and cuttin the thread in with a die nut. To do anything right is time consuming. To do anything wrong is fast. On another note the Ren faires we have here have only one or two 'real sword' vendor's, both selling depeeka. And they tout them as fine handcrafted swords. My family says I should get a stand at it next year but 'no', it's not the market.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2009 17:21:18 GMT
A hex nut system can incorporate a welded rod, Luka. Screw on pommels have some disadvantages, yes, but also some advanages in some cases. Actually it will surprise you to learn that welding to attach the threaded rod, OR straight rod which may be peened or onto which the threads are later cut, has some distinct advantages over cutting it straight from the tang flatbar stock. For example - a thread cut straight from the tang flatbar stock is thus composed of High C steel - that is likely to become hardened on a forged or through hardened piece. One hopes it would later be tempered down to an appropriate temper/hardness. The point is that mild steel is always tougher than hardened steel when it comes to absorbing shock. Its softer, so it's gonna be less brittle. And thus it will bend rather than snap in the scary times of excessive shock, such as flubbing a cut. So there you have it, that rod is the smallest part and can be the weakest link in a sword - having the weight of almost half the sword concentrated on it's shoulder. And remember many (not all) peened swords do incorporate a skinny rod at the end of the tang which protrudes through the pommel, so its not just the nutted and screw ons. So as usual it's a case of don't be quick to assume anything. Whether it's welded, cut, peened, or threaded, these methods all exist because each one has benefits and disadvantages in certain circumstances. And there's always a right and wrong way to do anything. The only way you will know if your sword was done right or wrong is to be there when it's made I put this up just yesterday out of pure coincidence. It'll show you the best way I know to weld the rod at the end of the tang: /index.cgi?board=fable&action=display&thread=12237&page=1 You can see that adding a rod properly is not at all quicker or easier than peening. Neither is grinding down the tang and cuttin the thread in with a die nut. To do anything right is time consuming. To do anything wrong is fast. On another note the Ren faires we have here have only one or two 'real sword' vendor's, both selling depeeka. And they tout them as fine handcrafted swords. My family says I should get a stand at it next year but 'no', it's not the market. What makes me nervous, and should make anyone nervous about buying a sword with a welded allthread tang- full or partial rat tail, is not knowing how knowledgeable the maker is about post heat treating welded allthread. High-strength Alloy allthread becomes extremely brittle after welding if it is simply allowed to cool slowly at air temperature. If a maker is unaware of this fact, or worse is not concerned or does not want to take the time and invest the labor, then it might as well be a cheap, butt welded rat tail. Until I know a lot more about a swordmaker, I will turn and run as soon as I hear "weld" & "tang" in the same sentence.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2009 17:51:29 GMT
I've actually found very few sword-smiths at the RenFaires that make a product I would want more then say a Gen 2, DSA, Valiant Armoury, Hanwei/Tinker, or Kris Cutlery sword... just for a few examples. MOST of those smiths sales at the RenFaires go to noobs... people who just pop in and are most likely not even dressed for the event... but they decide 'Hey, I wouldn't mind have a sword, I'll go pick up one of those...' You see a lot of SaberSmith, Starfire, Badger Blades and other such wares... as well as a few less known smaller makes. Sometimes you find booths selling Windlass or Hanwei stuff, normaly MUCH more expensive then you can find online. I don't tend to buy weapons at the faires. That's been my experience; very shiny, very crow-bar like items with exorbitant prices...nothing remotely worth buying.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2009 20:37:24 GMT
That's been my experience; very shiny, very crow-bar like items with exorbitant prices...nothing remotely worth buying. A lot of these were not even shiny. Not a satin finish, but just plain old "hand grinder polished" rough looking. Agree with the "crowbar-like" description. I picked up a hand & a half with a nice looking brass pommel & crossguard. It was about as well balanced as a crowbar held with the curved end out - and as heavy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2009 23:50:40 GMT
The only ren fair I went to was in 1988 or so, Angel Sword was the only sword vendor there, They were nice enough to let me hold an incredible fantasy blade that had a $16,000.00 price tag on it Was a kidney even worth that back then needless to say, I left that fair without a sword, just a 6-foot flute staff that made cool sounds when you practiced staff forms It really could be played, but I never learned
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 15, 2009 5:53:48 GMT
A lot of these were not even shiny. Not a satin finish, but just plain old "hand grinder polished" rough looking. Agree with the "crowbar-like" description. I picked up a hand & a half with a nice looking brass pommel & crossguard. It was about as well balanced as a crowbar held with the curved end out - and as heavy. It tends to be one or the other at the RenFaires... shiny SLO's that would snap appart if you hit anything with them... or heavy rough made monster hunks of steel trying to look like swords. ;D As was said above, I like RenFaire for the clothes and the little craft type items you can find. I am never looking for weapons at RenFaires... allthough I would not mind being plesently surprised some day and finding someone Like Brenno or Sam at a Renfaire selling their wares.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 15, 2009 6:03:13 GMT
I just do NOT trust any seller at a RenFair, there are so many crooks in those places I don't know if I could really pick out the one good buy. I really just don't go to renfairs any more. If I want to play medievally stuff I just go to an SCA event. it's cheaper, I get to fight instead of just watching something that could be hollywood sword fighting if it was done better and all those annoying merchants yellng and squaking and squabling for your dollar with their over-priced junk. just thinking about RenFairs turns my stomach now days.
Yuck , I'll pass thank you!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2009 6:18:06 GMT
While I agree that the SCA events are more fun (especially when you meet the pirates)...the ren faires do have the advantage of having things taken care of for you. It´s a service. I go when I don´t have time to deal with an SCA event and the aftermath of an SCA event.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 15, 2009 9:48:23 GMT
I just do NOT trust any seller at a RenFair, there are so many crooks in those places I don't know if I could really pick out the one good buy. I really just don't go to renfairs any more. If I want to play medievally stuff I just go to an SCA event. it's cheaper, I get to fight instead of just watching something that could be hollywood sword fighting if it was done better and all those annoying merchants yellng and squaking and squabling for your dollar with their over-priced junk. just thinking about RenFairs turns my stomach now days. Yuck , I'll pass thank you! Wow... check out Mr. Grumpy! Like CN said, RenFaires are much easier to just come, do your thing, and leave. Much more relaxed and less involved then an SCA event. Also... anyone can just show up to a Renfaire and do their thing. You don't HAVE to be in character and dress up (Tho I find it much more fun to do so myself) and you can catch the shows (some of which are pretty decent, some suck) and shop (A lot of it is overpriced crap, but there are dimonds in the rough, and I like to bargin.) and eat drink and be merry. Different strokes and all that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2009 12:06:54 GMT
The sword vendors at ren faires hate me cuz I always ask if if it's rat tail construction on square shoulders...they almost always repond with "threaded" etc...listen, there are very FEW makers to trust on that semprini. Maybe if Brendude was making the sword yeah. My exp with hanwei years ago damaged any confidence I have on that sort of design. Had a guy at the mall knife store yesterday - who tried to convince me that the hanwei PPKE was the "Corvette of Swords" lol Ren Faires = Food + Girls
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2009 14:22:04 GMT
LMAO @ Corvette of swords
Seeing as Corvettes were never really super-reliable and prone to issues- he may've been telling you the truth. LOL
Tom, you're smart enough to know the difference...you stand a good chance of avoiding any sort of craptacular purchases. The rest who are not as well versed, if they're buying it there, its what they want to do- they're caught up in the moment; that's what those merchants are counting on. Otherwise, why go?
I think some of them take pride in their work, even if it isn't up to our standards, for their general purpose (costuming) they're suitable...but usually WAY overpriced. I do hate that, but it doesn't stop me from checking out every weapon booth at the fair, handle a few pieces to see what they're working with, and usually just chuckle to myself at all the junk I've seen.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2009 14:44:04 GMT
Ren Fairs usually sell junk. I would only consider buying a brand I recognize (windlass, Gen 2....) The problem is that they usually charge more at Ren Fairs then you would pay over the internet. The swords also tend to have some rust on them. Ren Fairs are good for going to and handling sword you might want to buy. If you like the feel, then go home and order a brand new one online, cheaper.
On occasion you might find a deal at a Ren Fair if its a rainy weekend. The key is to know your sword prices and start haggling at half of what you think it is worth.
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