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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 0:14:13 GMT
Good call. I keep forgetting about your regulatory requirements. When I think about some of the knives we're talking about, the heaviest could consume more than 40% of your allotted weight. That sounds like a large portion for just one piece of kit. However, one of your previous points occurs to me again. The knife is the tool with which you provide yourself with almost everything else, and is the only piece of survival gear that cannot be replaced.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 2:49:49 GMT
Oh my. Got an awesome knife in the mail today. A true tool of destruction that is almost impervious to damage. Hope to have some pics soon.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 6:00:31 GMT
Good call. I keep forgetting about your regulatory requirements. When I think about some of the knives we're talking about, the heaviest could consume more than 40% of your allotted weight. That sounds like a large portion for just one piece of kit. However, one of your previous points occurs to me again. The knife is the tool with which you provide yourself with almost everything else, and is the only piece of survival gear that cannot be replaced. Exactly correct. The balance has to be struck. Yes, the knife can be used to make the other things I would need such as water-carriers and first-aid items, but Yes, if I take properly manufactured versions of those items they will be far more effective and immediately available, but Yes, the knife is the one item among them I can't replace or substitute--so it goes back and forth, and I have to find an optimal compromise. If I can fit a seven inch blade in 3/8 stock, the truth is such a knife is probably enough. If such a knife was well made, you would have to really move mountains with it to break it. Moving mountains is not a capability I need in a survival knife. So while one is always hesitant to say "It's good enough," there does come a point when it IS good enough, and anything more (<cough>Battle Mistress</cough>) is just not necessary. If the excess is both not necessary and consuming weight and volume that could be used for other stuff, then poof. It's gotta go. So... we'll see. We'll see what my limitations are for a cockpit companion, in terms of dimensions and the weight arithmetic. I'll get a quality knife that fills that envelope. If I like it and think I could handle more mass without losing capability, I'll get a bigger, badder piece for my Bug Out Bag. Thanks again for the recommendations. Also: wha'd'ja get?! wha'd'ja get?!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 18:12:50 GMT
Ancient: In that case, in terms of what you are talking about, I would be thinking one of the shorter busse. I didn't realise you had specific limitations. The Busse Battle Mistress is a queen of knives, but she is a big girl. In terms of survival knife, tough, reasonably light weight and can do a multitude of jobs right? The reason I like Busse knives is because they are tough enough that you could just about jam them into a rock face if need be and then stand on it. Although another knife that really has my interest, though I think of it more in terms of being a killing knife is this one; It seems to suit your requirements quite well, although it is a bit long at 9". They are a slim profile knife, if you strip off the micarta scales you could replace them with some simple leather. You can throw them, baton with them, split wood and if worse comes to worse remove any threats. Also if you strip off the micarta scales, it would make quite a good spear point in a makeshift spear.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 19:08:06 GMT
Hah! Brutal. Those do look to be more in the realm of combat knifes, though, as you say. That would be the ideal tip design for the carving, notching, drilling, and whittling type of activities such as occasionally pop up in a survival scenario (like our example). Regarding my limitations: my first priority in a survival knife is to find one that will fit the dimensions and weights allotted me by the parachute riggers (who are actually the overall gearmasters for Naval Aviators), which I actually don't know yet. As soon as I find out, I'll be matching them up against the designs from Busse and Ranger and other submissions here to get a knife for my flight gear. If I find that that knife is easy to handle and too small, then I'll get a different, larger knife for my Bug Out Bag, my personal survival kit.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 19:28:49 GMT
Well might I suggest (depending on your price limit) a skeletonised Jay Fisher knife? That guy has been making knives for combat and survival for years and he knows what an army, navy or airforce pilot/soldier/whatever needs in terms of a really good knife. He is pricey but in terms of knowing how to make a good knife he is unmatched, in terms of making a knife you can stake your life on, I would choose him over any other custom maker. The great thing about skeletonised knives if that they are light, effective and if you get one of his patented combat sheaths your knife will stay in the sheath no matter what and it will attach to any webbing or harness or what have you.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 19:37:20 GMT
Thank you, thank you. I'll look into his work. I wonder what the tolerances are of a skeletonized blade, in terms of some of the more brutal activities like chopping, batoning, and prying.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 20:43:05 GMT
Ancient: In that case, in terms of what you are talking about, I would be thinking one of the shorter busse. I didn't realise you had specific limitations. The Busse Battle Mistress is a queen of knives, but she is a big girl. In terms of survival knife, tough, reasonably light weight and can do a multitude of jobs right? The reason I like Busse knives is because they are tough enough that you could just about jam them into a rock face if need be and then stand on it. Although another knife that really has my interest, though I think of it more in terms of being a killing knife is this one; It seems to suit your requirements quite well, although it is a bit long at 9". They are a slim profile knife, if you strip off the micarta scales you could replace them with some simple leather. You can throw them, baton with them, split wood and if worse comes to worse remove any threats. Also if you strip off the micarta scales, it would make quite a good spear point in a makeshift spear. Trackers and Tom Brown knives do have a small following, particularly following the film in which they were so prominently featured. I can't comment too much on them because I've never used one. However, I have heard mixed reviews, which leads me to believe that they might be a good fit for some people and not for others. I can tell you that replacing the scales with leather would be a bad choice. Stick with the micarta, but slim it down on a belt sander. Also, removing the scales to make a spear might sound like a good idea initially (provided you have hex keys in your survival kit). But using these screws to secure the handle creates a weak point in the knife. It does look like a strong blade design, although the saw looks worthless and it doesn't look like a design that lends itself to throwing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 20:50:53 GMT
You know, that's a really good point. Having holes through the tang does introduce a point of weakness. I wonder how the knife makers and tactical sword makers would respond to that, as many of them use a sandwiched design with two or three bolts, often removable.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 21:03:53 GMT
Well many of the knife makers that I know and especially many of them that make tactical designs will use brass pins that are basically peening the scales to the tang. Also contrary to popular misconception holes through the tang, if the tang is made properly, won't cause any structural integrity issues, nor do those key locked screws through the scales because the screw or the pins fill those holes such that it is like there are no holes in the tang.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 21:52:41 GMT
Exactly correct. The balance has to be struck. Yes, the knife can be used to make the other things I would need such as water-carriers and first-aid items, but Yes, if I take properly manufactured versions of those items they will be far more effective and immediately available, but Yes, the knife is the one item among them I can't replace or substitute--so it goes back and forth, and I have to find an optimal compromise. If I can fit a seven inch blade in 3/8 stock, the truth is such a knife is probably enough. If such a knife was well made, you would have to really move mountains with it to break it. Moving mountains is not a capability I need in a survival knife. So while one is always hesitant to say "It's good enough," there does come a point when it IS good enough, and anything more (<cough>Battle Mistress</cough>) is just not necessary. If the excess is both not necessary and consuming weight and volume that could be used for other stuff, then poof. It's gotta go. So... we'll see. We'll see what my limitations are for a cockpit companion, in terms of dimensions and the weight arithmetic. I'll get a quality knife that fills that envelope. If I like it and think I could handle more mass without losing capability, I'll get a bigger, badder piece for my Bug Out Bag. Thanks again for the recommendations. Also: wha'd'ja get?! wha'd'ja get?! I completely agree that this balance must be met, but my opinion will always make the strength of the knife paramount. If this is the most important tool, then it CANNOT fail. No matter what crazy ass situation I get into and what I am forced to demand from it, the knife CANNOT fail. Now, by failure I mean catastrophic failure that would render the knife no longer useful as a knife. IMO that includes everything from prying rocks apart to opening car doors. But like we've already mentioned, the most unimaginable crap always seems to happen at the worst times. When I'm in a tight spot, I have to be able to count on the knife coming out alive so that I can come out alive. I do understand this balance and I agree with you on the battle mistress being a bit much. Sorry i keep coming back to the strength aspect of these knives, but I don't think it can be overemphasized, at least as a concept. Well, what I got was an original combat grade Dog Father from Scrap Yard Knives. These knives were produced before I became acquainted with the company, so I hadn't had one as the premium they commanded on the secondary market was a bit much for me. This knife pretty much made the company and created its following. Now I have one to accompany my LE edition. It is made of SR77, which is Scrap Yard's proprietarily heat treated S7 shock steel. It has an injection molded Resiprene - C handle. With my RD9 and DFLE Some test photos: You will never . . . ever destroy this knife. It is like the Terminator. You would have to put it in a vat of molten steel or something.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 21:52:53 GMT
Wraith, please define "peening" in this context. I've seen that word come and go before, never had a good definition of it.
Mr. West: yeah, notwithstanding a knife so bulky it's no longer useful as a knife, its ability to survive its own use and lifestyle is paramount. If it breaks, you're hosed. So I'm with you in the justification for these monstrosities. They're still ridiculous, though, justified or not. I was looking at the Dog Father as well, and it's just... all business.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 22:00:49 GMT
You know, that's a really good point. Having holes through the tang does introduce a point of weakness. I wonder how the knife makers and tactical sword makers would respond to that, as many of them use a sandwiched design with two or three bolts, often removable. Well, that isn't really what I meant. Yes, holes through the tang do make it weaker than a design with no holes. IMO, though this difference in strength is negligible. What is more pertinent is the weaker nature of an allen screw when compared with a rivet. The threads of the screw are usually strong enough, however impact and shock can pop the heads off those screws in situations that really don't even stretch the imagination. Ultimately, a tang without holes using an injection molded handle will be lighter, stronger, and more durable, but as to its degree of superiority I am not really sure..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 22:06:29 GMT
Mr. West: yeah, notwithstanding a knife so bulky it's no longer useful as a knife, its ability to survive its own use and lifestyle is paramount. If it breaks, you're hosed. So I'm with you in the justification for these monstrosities. They're still ridiculous, though, justified or not. I was looking at the Dog Father as well, and it's just... all business. I know. Their ridiculous overkill is part of what makes them fun and, at least to me, is part of the allure of collecting them. They are just awesome creations. They have actually surpassed ridiculous strength and reached . . . ludicrous strength!
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Post by hotspur on Aug 24, 2009 1:00:29 GMT
Some interesting trends and subjectivties in these threads generally list just about everything out there. While a good many often run to the bruisers (and I have always owned/wanted one, in my Gerber BMF) the ones often related as delicate find a following as well. In one of these threads the topic was more about what one uses most or might be carrying. At the beginning of this thread, I posted one batch of pocketables I have always found quite useful (and used). In this picture is an ensemble of what is actually right here at hand and a most used knife is the little stag bird and trout. Interesting to me in some browsing the current market is a new one from Boker, emulating one take on a WWII survival knife that is quite like my bird and trout. www.agrussell.com/bokerplus-air-force-pilot-survival-knife/p/BOhhh02BO155/Another fellow also related as a favorite must carry in the '60s infantry was one of the "little" folding toohpicks he would sew into pouches inside his boots. We're probably all familiar with the ubiquitous "Jet Pilot" official(?) pattern of a short clip blade and that trend really does go back to the funtional rational of such knives. I believe it was in this thread as well that I mentioned a listing for a Randall #5 and of that company, bothe the Airman models, including the #15 #18 and the Astro (by Jim Lovett) were yet more purpose made knives. The Astro could be considered the brute there, as having a stouter blade. Bothe the Astro and Airman have adaptation to spears in mind, as well as secondary storage. Someone else at one point had mentioned the sawback designs, Randall was thinking in terms of aircraft skins, the deep notchy guys really meant for just that, not sawing wood but cutting grooves in sticks/logs. Military short swords had been carried in bayonet version as well but some of those crosscut saws were really meant for the task of sawing small logs (some quite effectively). These short hangers also carried into the 20th century and tehre has been a surplus of the Argentine 1909 shortswords that run less than $200, often as little as the $100 mark, with scabbard and frog. A personal peeve of my own would probably relate the movie spawning the Tracker knives and the evolution in the market that (in my opinion) just kind of missed the point and actual design of the prototypes and the movie knife. What we are most left with is more fanboy clamor for the next and best versions of them. I guess there is just no one taste that will suit all. That's fine though, folk will eventually find a favorite. I still have that four inch blade bird and trout knife within of reach of where I type and a knife I still use in great use of utility and have continued to for decades. On the first page I pictured a slim 4 1/2" micarta slabbed drop point that, as mentioned then, probably one of the most useful general purpose field knives I have. The fobs may seem silly to some but is an ever present five to six feet of cord in a handy little package. On another knife front, I had recently noticed Boker has gone wild in the Magnum line with several quite stout looking folders in the sub $20 class. I had/have been meaning to put a standard Magnum Dietmar dagger through its paces and just never seem to get around to it. I imagine I would find them all a little soft in the blade department but not unlike the W-77 boot in the picture above here, quite suited as an everyday and sturdy knife, if lacking a bit in aesthetic or edge retention (easily sharpened). I mention www.treemanknives.com again only because I am a fanboy of the site and some of the available options both from Behring and other makers like De Leon, Voorhis, Martin, etc; that make good sturdy and comfortable knives that can suit just about any taste in military context. One real plus on the De Leon knives (as they become available in batches) is large grips. As an aside, Randall themselves and several retailers of them will expedite and discount to the military. Cheers Hotspur; I like the light flyweight purposeful knives but can appreciate heavier ones (hence also liking the Randall #2-8 and the pictured De Leon 7" JF)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2009 5:07:54 GMT
Thank you for the info, Hotspur. That's quite... comprehensive. I'll poke through that survey tomorrow and see what I like.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2009 17:26:21 GMT
My preferences have gone through several evolutionary processes since this thread started, but now I'm starting to realize it may be better to get a really good knife right away, even if it's half the price of a sword. I too am considering the Ranger RD7, as it seems the best bang for the buck. Any naysayers? If I were to get this one, would I want a micarta or g-10 grip, I wonder? Thanks for further enlivening the thread, ancient.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 26, 2009 18:23:34 GMT
My preferences have gone through several evolutionary processes since this thread started, ... My knife preferences change every time I see a new knife. You're on the right track there...but why stop at half? I can't say these knives have won me over, personally...but if I ever feel the need for a giant hunk of sharp steel to just bash into things, maybe. Agreed, this has been a good thread.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2009 19:07:03 GMT
It was my pleasure, and pure luck on my part that I happened to come across this thread while it was still active, WHILE in the process of looking for a sword to fill out my survival equipment needs (or, in the case of a sword, "survival wants"). If you pop over to a place like Survival Topics and check out his recommendations, you'll see that he favors slightly smaller, lighter knives than the full-on Battle Mistress or what have you. On his list you'll see that some of the Swamp Rat, Busse, and Scrap Yard knives are really on the high end, size/mass-wise. That said, knives like the Dog Father, Swamp Rat, and Ranger RD-7 are on there. Personally, I like the idea that these knives are "over-massed" if you will and I can rely on them never, ever, ever to break. I'll trade an ounce or two and a little bit of finesse for that promise, especially in any survival situation or any activity that might become a survival situation. To borrow one of his scenarios, you drove up into the mountains just for the afternoon, maybe to check out a new property and plan your hunting cabin, and on the way back down your truck dies. Your truck never dies. This is unheard-of! And now you're stuck, with no cell reception, the sun is going down, and the mountain is about to get freakin' cold. Fortunately for you, even though you were just taking a day trip in your jeans and flannel shirt and had NO intention of doing anything more outdoorsy than parking your Jeep and looking around the lot a little, you still brought your Tier 1 gear with you. So instead of hoping you have enough gas to idle your truck all night, you can build a fire bed and sleep like a bug in a rug. Because you have a knife that can do everything you need it to do. And you'll only have to buy it once. (Any additional knives you buy are just to feed your addiction to knives.) P.S. Regarding the grips, I have a feeling the choice is more personal than technical. Either of those materials is going to be ridiculously strong. P.P.S. Most of my posts (in this thread and others) are littered with cross-references, and this forum doesn't highlight hypertext very well. Consider it a treasure hunt.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2009 19:31:30 GMT
LOL
I'm with random...my knife preferences change every time I see a new one, too.
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