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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2009 14:36:19 GMT
The army uses them and the OP welcomed all price range. What army uses them?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2009 16:25:07 GMT
the Army of the United States of America.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2009 16:40:54 GMT
the Army of the United States of America. What would make you think that?
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 20, 2009 17:38:49 GMT
Well, those are um...different.
I can't imagine "The Army" "uses" those...though perhaps a soldier or two has managed authorization to carry his...
Either way, wow, those are um...different.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2009 23:06:02 GMT
Skimming through this thread, I nowhere see an actual description of what the knife will do. The knife does not camp, backpack, or hike. You do that. The knife does--or may do--specific tasks along the way. Since an analysis of those tasks is essential to discussing/designing/choosing any tool, please permit me to offer an example of a day in the life of a survival knife. (This is your knife's worst case scenario.) Manual URL: sharplight.org/survivalscenario.htmlAside: My credentials are that I am a Student Naval Aviator and thus have had some measure of survival training, and I have been an avid outdoorsman most of my life. So while this is by no means expert testimony, it is at least informed testimony. I'm certain there are older, saltier folk on this and other forums who will be able to add to what I provide here. The other external reference that may be of interest to someone reading this post is the complete survival kit which I am constructing for myself. If you wish to discuss that with me, though, please PM or use another thread, so that this one can stay on topic.So, what do we make of the knife the above scenario? In the course of a single afternoon, it has... slashed, hacked, chopped, stabbed, spiked, wedged, chiseled, split, pried, scraped, drilled, dug, whittled, and cut. Furthermore, it has faced soft wood, hard wood, dirt, rocks, wire, flesh, and bone. It has experienced edge stress, tip stress, impact stress (on both the back and the "pommel" as well as the edge), bending stress, and its user's emotional stress. (It may also have experienced ejection and "parachute landing fall" stress.) One may reply: "But I would never do that to my knife. Digging in rocky soil? That's just abusive." If you wouldn't "that" to your knife, it's because "that" is likely to damage it in some way you consider intolerable. If your knife is meant to be pretty (Katana), then while it might be capable of cutting ten-penny nails, you probably won't use it for that, because surface abrasion is not tolerable damage for your purposes. A survival knife, though, is meant to help you survive, and if digging through gritty silicates improves your chances of survival, then your knife had better step up. Understand that what is considered "destructive testing" for the swords on this site is considered "daily life" when civilization leaves you behind, and your knife better be able not only to do it but to do it... and do it... and do it... day in and day out for a long, long time. One may also reply: "But I just want a camping and hunting knife. It's never going to be used in a survival situation like that." The frequency and ease with which sport outings become survival situations is well documented. Prepare for the worst, and if the worst never comes to pass, then at least you have a knife that proudly glides through your more pedestrian employment. There should be nothing your knife should do that you are afraid to ask of it. If you find yourself reluctant to use your knife, you have defeated your own purpose, wasted your money, and in a survival situation possibly condemned your own life.What are the qualities of this knife, then? First and foremost, it is tough. It should be made from high-strength steel that holds its shape and resists bending, cracking, or chipping, even under extreme lateral and impact stress. Loss of edge is preferable to loss of overall structural integrity. I would rather my knife take a tiny nick or roll (which can be sharpened out) or a slight set (I can flip it over and push the other way next time) than that it break, crack, or become what Mr. Southren refers to as a helicopter. In addition to the strong steel, this knife will use lots of it, being likely three to four sixteenths of an inch thick along the back, out at least to the end of the knife's spine (in the case of a clip point) if not to the very tip (in the case of a drop point or something similar). Finally, the steel of which the knife is made should resist chemical degradation (corrosion and rust). Next, to accommodate all the various actions it will perform, it must have a particular shape. It must absolutely have a full tang that is of one piece with the blade from forging and extends all the way through the handle, either protruding from the handle slightly at the "pommel" end or connecting to an actual pommel suitable for use as a mallet against wooden targets or to receive blows from a wooden baton. The shape of the blade is subject to greater debate. It must provide enough weight in the upper two thirds of the blade to provide a decent hacking action, and must also provide strength out to the tip of the knife, as mentioned above, for wedging (both edge-on and point-on) and prying motions. It should have a refined tip of some sort for finesse work, such as augering and cutting small holes. It should probably be curved back toward the tip for good cutting and whittling behavior. The back of the tip might be sharpened, but only very near the tip, as most of the back of the knife should be flat for batoning. Finally, it must be small and light enough to accompany you under circumstances when every ounce of weight you carry must be carefully metered, and every cubic inch of cargo space in your rucksack is a precious commodity. As described in the scenario, your knife is your first and last companion. It is your everything. With your knife, you can acquire anything else (up to and including natural cordage), but nothing else acquired in the field can ever stand in for a good knife. So if your knife is so heavy or large that you left it in the truck, or couldn't fit it in your flight vest, or tend to take it out and set it aside when you stop to rest because its weight drags on you after six 8-hour days of slogging through the rain and underbrush, then it's too heavy or large to be considered a survival knife. In this thread, many knives are put forward which meet most or all of these demands. And there will always be nearly as many opinions as there are respondents to a question like this one. However, the unsentimental and Darwinian nature of the survival business has had its say on the ideal survival knife, and all opinion and enthusiasm for history aside, this evolutionary process has given us a clear winning design. This design is a thick-bladed clip-point (or Bowie) knife with a full tang, a blade length between four and six inches, and an aspect ratio (blade length to blade width) of less than 6:1 (generally speaking). Its construction will be simple, usually comprised of a riveted "sandwich"-type grip assembly around an otherwise very spartan length of forged steel. The steel used is generally carbon steel (at the low carbon-content end) or what they advertise as "high carbon stainless." (Some of the best are actually made from the latter.) Most will have a corrosion resistant black coating of some kind, usually somewhat more durable than simple paint. Carbon-steel blades obviously depend on this more than stainless steel blades. The standard KA-BAR is an example of this. (Note, though, that the KA-BAR is a combat utility knife and does not meet all of the specifications listed above. Furthermore, it IS an issue item, built for the Department of Defense by the lowest bidder. It is "mil-spec," but is not the gold standard, any more than is the issued survival knife for Navy pilots. Upgrade from mil-spec where you can, folks. I do!) Examples of high-quality knives in this category stretch across a spectrum of sizes and configurations--variations on a theme, if you will. The best exemplars of which I am aware are, at the small end, the SOG Seal Pup and, at the large end, the Fallkniven A1. Fallkniven knives are trusted around the world, and the SOG Seal Pup is renowned among tactical professionals in the United States. Are these $30 knives? No. I would not trust my life to a $30 knife. If you buy a $30 knife, you will routinely choose not to use it where you might have used a more robust knife, and every time you don't use your knife, you might as well not have it. Whether you are backpacking the Appalachian Trail or hiking out of enemy territory, every ounce hanging from your shoulders and every cubic inch of space in your pack is precious. Every dollar you saved by opting for the cheaper knife is a dollar worth of knife you now don't have--a dollar worth of tool you could have had at no additional cost of space or weight. You have not saved yourself anything worth saving if you find yourself in need of a machete and a pry-bar in addition to your knife. $150 is easy to save up, and for it you will get a lifetime companion, one which you are never reluctant to bring with you and employ in all its myriad uses. The alternative is a knife you either do not use when you should, or do use. Once. And then it's broken. Either way, you spend the rest of your unplanned adventure knifeless, and that's... bad.
May your knife go with you everywhere, and may it return with you, heavily scarred but unbroken.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 20, 2009 23:16:54 GMT
Sound advice built on sage wisdom. Coming from a naval aviator (do you like jumbo shrimp, too? )...okay so I'm just picking because I'm an Air Force brat who used to be a (civilian) student pilot...and really have nowhere to go from here. Tee hee? Anyway, I do like your take on the role of a knife. Oh, and welcome aboard.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2009 23:35:42 GMT
Thank'e. I was perusing, actually poking around for information regarding another question entirely when I came across this thread and thought I'd offer what I had. Also, yes, your survival knife can kill people, so: Defense? Check. Though you'll be putting it to better use if you use it to whittle yourself a quarterstaff, spear, or (if you have a LOT of time on your hands, a shinai. (There's one in one of the Land Survival classrooms at NAS Pensacola. One of the assistant instructors was bored and carved a fully formed and mostly straight Katana out of a tree branch.) If you're fighting with a knife, you did something wrong somewhere along the line. It goes along with the general principle that if you start fighting when you meet your opponent, you're already behind the curve. The winners are already in battle when they wake up in the morning. They were in battle ten years ago. The actual "killing you" part is a formality, a violent blip in a lifestyle of martial preparedness--
See? This is why I don't post on forums. It gives me forumitis. Diarrhea of the fingers.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 21, 2009 1:06:21 GMT
I think I might like you already.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 3:34:09 GMT
Skimming through this thread, I nowhere see an actual description of what the knife will do. The knife does not camp, backpack, or hike. You do that. The knife does--or may do--specific tasks along the way. Since an analysis of those tasks is essential to discussing/designing/choosing any tool, please permit me to offer an example of a day in the life of a survival knife. (This is your knife's worst case scenario.) Manual URL: sharplight.org/survivalscenario.htmlGood call. I think several people tried to get the OP to be more specific about what he wanted to use the knife, but I think he will be in for a bit of trial and error before he finds what suits his specific needs the best. So, what do we make of the knife the above scenario? In the course of a single afternoon, it has... slashed, hacked, chopped, stabbed, spiked, wedged, chiseled, split, pried, scraped, drilled, dug, whittled, and cut. Furthermore, it has faced soft wood, hard wood, dirt, rocks, wire, flesh, and bone. It has experienced edge stress, tip stress, impact stress (on both the back and the "pommel" as well as the edge), bending stress, and its user's emotional stress. (It may also have experienced ejection and "parachute landing fall" stress.) And any number of things you can't even imagine until it happens and the need arises. One may reply: "But I would never do that to my knife. Digging in rocky soil? That's just abusive." If you wouldn't "that" to your knife, it's because "that" is likely to damage it in some way you consider intolerable. Exactly. I see many people say "well, that's not what a knife is for." A knife is simply a tool that can be designed and constructed to perform a range of tasks. Its success and adaptability to these tasks are closely related to its design and construction. If you run into a problem and have to think "well, a knife isn't for that," That statement isn't necessarily true. What is true is that you have the wrong knife. If your knife is meant to be pretty (Katana), then while it might be capable of cutting ten-penny nails, you probably won't use it for that, because surface abrasion is not tolerable damage for your purposes. A survival knife, though, is meant to help you survive, and if digging through gritty silicates improves your chances of survival, then your knife had better step up. Understand that what is considered "destructive testing" for the swords on this site is considered "daily life" when civilization leaves you behind, and your knife better be able not only to do it but to do it... and do it... and do it... day in and day out for a long, long time. Excellent points. One may also reply: "But I just want a camping and hunting knife. It's never going to be used in a survival situation like that." The frequency and ease with which sport outings become survival situations is well documented. Prepare for the worst, and if the worst never comes to pass, then at least you have a knife that proudly glides through your more pedestrian employment. Also a great point. What are the qualities of this knife, then? First and foremost, it is tough. It should be made from high-strength steel that holds its shape and resists bending, cracking, or chipping, even under extreme lateral and impact stress. Loss of edge is preferable to loss of overall structural integrity. I would rather my knife take a tiny nick or roll (which can be sharpened out) or a slight set (I can flip it over and push the other way next time) than that it break, crack, or become what Mr. Southren refers to as a helicopter. In addition to the strong steel, this knife will use lots of it, being likely three to four sixteenths of an inch thick along the back, out at least to the end of the knife's spine (in the case of a clip point) if not to the very tip (in the case of a drop point or something similar). Finally, the steel of which the knife is made should resist chemical degradation (corrosion and rust). I am in agreement with all these points, but the last is a little more ambiguous. All steel will corrode, but the trade off is often one between strength and corrosion resistance, sacrificing some of one characteristic for more of another. Here we must be very careful. Next, to accommodate all the various actions it will perform, it must have a particular shape. It must absolutely have a full tang that is of one piece with the blade from forging and extends all the way through the handle, either protruding from the handle slightly at the "pommel" end or connecting to an actual pommel suitable for use as a mallet against wooden targets or to receive blows from a wooden baton. The shape of the blade is subject to greater debate. It must provide enough weight in the upper two thirds of the blade to provide a decent hacking action, and must also provide strength out to the tip of the knife, as mentioned above, for wedging (both edge-on and point-on) and prying motions. It should have a refined tip of some sort for finesse work, such as augering and cutting small holes. It should probably be curved back toward the tip for good cutting and whittling behavior. The back of the tip might be sharpened, but only very near the tip, as most of the back of the knife should be flat for batoning. Spot on, but I would also add that serrations are generally worthless unless cutting a lot of synthetic fibrous material. I suppose they could also work well for vines, but a good chop would do just as well without compromising the usefulness of a uniform edge. Finally, it must be small and light enough to accompany you under circumstances when every ounce of weight you carry must be carefully metered, and every cubic inch of cargo space in your rucksack is a precious commodity. As described in the scenario, your knife is your first and last companion. It is your everything. With your knife, you can acquire anything else (up to and including natural cordage), but nothing else acquired in the field can ever stand in for a good knife. So if your knife is so heavy or large that you left it in the truck, or couldn't fit it in your flight vest, or tend to take it out and set it aside when you stop to rest because its weight drags on you after six 8-hour days of slogging through the rain and underbrush, then it's too heavy or large to be considered a survival knife. Another place we must be careful is in balancing weight with functionality. A knife so heavy that it discourages employment is pretty much a caricature in my mind. If a useful knife is too heavy for you to carry, then you need to stay your ass at home until you can carry it. You made another good point about dimensions. I often carry a 9 or 10 inch blade that is comfortable on my leg or on my pack, but its dimensions might not be so great for a cockpit. It would be OK on a MOLLE vest, but maybe not on a flight vest in a cockpit. Barring that, overall dimensions are less of an issue. Training is key in mating the man to the kit. If you find your knife to be too heavy, then you have two obvious options. This design is a thick-bladed clip-point (or Bowie) knife with a full tang, a blade length between four and six inches, and an aspect ratio (blade length to blade width) of less than 6:1 (generally speaking). Its construction will be simple, usually comprised of a riveted "sandwich"-type grip assembly around an otherwise very spartan length of forged steel. The steel used is generally carbon steel (at the low carbon-content end) or what they advertise as "high carbon stainless." (Some of the best are actually made from the latter.) Here I must begin to disagree. Drop points and spear points are also fine, although spear points do sacrifice some finer movement for strength. Simple, rock solid construction is paramount, however there are methods other than riveted scales. Injection molding is a good example, which brings up another point about handle construction: Artificial materials are superior to natural materials in both durability and toughness. Material like zytel, resiprene - c, micarta, and G10 make better, more dependable handles than wood and leather. Now, the only real disagreement I have with your assessment is your choice of steels. Stainless steel is the last choice I would use in a survival knife because it is necessarily weaker than most other readily available carbon spring steels and tool steels. Unless you are under water, you are probably going to die long before real corrosion (not surface rust or pitting) is going to render your nonstainless blade ineffective. In my opinion, the difference in strength between a stainless steel and a quality carbon or tool steel is an unacceptable sacrifice to make. In addition, synthetic coatings and protective oxidation processes can somewhat offset this drawback of the stronger steels. That is not to say that one should make a survival knife out of a steel that takes surface corrosion when you look at it wrong, like D2, but there are many other steels along the continuum of corrosion resistance that fair much better and still retain loads more strength and durability than a stainless steel (5160, 5150, S7, 52100, INFI, A2). Moreover, many of these steels are more resistant to deformation AND chipping while retaining greater strength, toughness, and edge retention (albeit at varying levels of resharpening difficulty when compared to a low end stainless steel). Most will have a corrosion resistant black coating of some kind, usually somewhat more durable than simple paint. Carbon-steel blades obviously depend on this more than stainless steel blades. The standard KA-BAR is an example of this. (Note, though, that the KA-BAR is a combat utility knife and does not meet all of the specifications listed above. Furthermore, it IS an issue item, built for the Department of Defense by the lowest bidder. It is "mil-spec," but is not the gold standard, any more than is the issued survival knife for Navy pilots. Upgrade from mil-spec where you can, folks. I do!) While I love the Kabars, they also have a fairly weak (and pinned) stick tang. (Except for the Impact series.) Examples of high-quality knives in this category stretch across a spectrum of sizes and configurations--variations on a theme, if you will. The best exemplars of which I am aware are, at the small end, the SOG Seal Pup and, The seal pup is a fine knife, but it is geared toward light duty with emphasis on corrosion resistance rather than strength or edge retention. I believe it is an AUS 6 or AUS 8 stainless. It slices well, although not as well as it would with a plain edge, and has some excellent control of fine tip movement. It is a very poor chopper and also will not stand up to much heavy prying. Mine did not break, but I didn't baton with it. My friend's broke. He batoned with it.IMO it wouldn't make a bad companion to a larger knife. The A1 is also a fine knife. VG10 is an excellent steel that takes a very keen edge and also resharpens easily. Additionally, Fallkniven uses a lamination process that compensates for some of the inherent structural weakness of this stainless steel. It has a broader tang than the Seal Pup, and it is exposed to aid in whatever pommel striking purposes you might have for it. However, I would hardly call a 6 inch blade the "large" end of the spectrum. Again, this knife is a poor chopper. It has neither the mass nor the leverage to accomplish these tasks acceptably. Although its length and added strength would be better for prying than the Seal Pup, they are still relatively lackluster. I would trust it for most batonning. An added benefit, though is that when such blades suffer severe structural failure, they frequently split or crack along the laminations, leaving you with a broken, but largely still usable knife. Fallkniven knives are trusted around the world, and the SOG Seal Pup is renowned among tactical professionals in the United States. Are these $30 knives? No. I would not trust my life to a $30 knife. If you buy a $30 knife, you will routinely choose not to use it where you might have used a more robust knife, and every time you don't use your knife, you might as well not have it. Whether you are backpacking the Appalachian Trail or hiking out of enemy territory, every ounce hanging from your shoulders and every cubic inch of space in your pack is precious. Every dollar you saved by opting for the cheaper knife is a dollar worth of knife you now don't have--a dollar worth of tool you could have had at no additional cost of space or weight. You have not saved yourself anything worth saving if you find yourself in need of a machete and a pry-bar in addition to your knife. $150 is easy to save up, and for it you will get a lifetime companion, one which you are never reluctant to bring with you and employ in all its myriad uses. The alternative is a knife you either do not use when you should, or do use. Once. And then it's broken. Either way, you spend the rest of your unplanned adventure knifeless, and that's... bad. I would agree with all of that. Good observations. I also want to point out that opening the price range up to $150 yields a selection of knives far, FAR superior to both the Seal Pup and the A1. The smallest blade I would go with would be 6 inches and the largest probably around 9 or 10 inches. They can be had for under $150 in 5150, S7, 5160, 1095, and 52100. Sometimes in A2 at that price, but only if you snag a great deal. I hesitate to add SK5 because of some QC issues, but it should be pretty safe. Another reason for field testing your own equipment. One more point to make along the line of pricing is that when we are talking about badass knives like these, buying one used at a substantial discount wouldn't be a bad idea. I'm glad you've found your way to the forum! Good luck in your studies and thank you for your service!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 4:15:08 GMT
Thank you for the excellent feedback, Mr. West. To re-respond: I had not actually given thought to serrations, as I don't generally use them on outdoors knives. (I have serrations on my Emerson folding knife, but that's an "urban survival" knife, and the teeth are there for cutting seat belts and other synthetic materials, as you say.) I'm inclined to stick to smooth, uniform edge in the out-of-doors. Regarding steels, I have found in my research that VG 10 is categorized as a stainless steel, hence the comment that stainless steels are used in high-quality knives. That said, all steel does corrode, as you pointed out, so most survival knives are coated in some fashion, and any tool must be maintained. Regarding shape, I think you're right that drop and spear points are acceptable. If I had to put a rule of thumb on it, just as a guess, I'd say that the longer you're left waiting for a rescue, the more you'll want a refined tip--on the basis that the more bored you get, the more intricate will be the projects you assign yourself. :-) Regarding knife length, obviously needs differ from person to person. As you suggest, a nine-inch blade might be a tough squeeze in certain cockpits, not to mention how it impinges on the five-pound discretionary equipment limit. But beyond that sort of thing, my question to you is: can you employ a nine-inch blade safely with any degree of finesse? It would surely be great for hacking or splitting, but can you still whittle, drill, and cut fine grooves and holes with it without cutting off a finger? In my readings and discussions with instructors at Pensacola, it seemed a general agreement that six inches is the point at which you begin giving away control, and meanwhile our instructor seemed to be hacking, chiseling, and splitting just fine with a five-inch blade. What's your take? Finally, and to this I demand your response: I also want to point out that opening the price range up to $150 yields a selection of knives far, FAR superior to both the Seal Pup and the A1. The smallest blade I would go with would be 6 inches and the largest probably around 9 or 10 inches. They can be had for under $150 in 5150, S7, 5160, 1095, and 52100. Sometimes in A2 at that price, but only if you snag a great deal. I hesitate to add SK5 because of some QC issues, but it should be pretty safe. Another reason for field testing your own equipment. List, and be specific. I'm still in the market, here, so please, sir, give me some names of your recommendations. Assume price is no object. (I try not to make price an object when I'm betting my life on the thing I'm buying.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 7:33:07 GMT
Thank you for the excellent feedback, Mr. West. To re-respond: I had not actually given thought to serrations, as I don't generally use them on outdoors knives. (I have serrations on my Emerson folding knife, but that's an "urban survival" knife, and the teeth are there for cutting seat belts and other synthetic materials, as you say.) I'm inclined to stick to smooth, uniform edge in the out-of-doors. Regarding steels, I have found in my research that VG 10 is categorized as a stainless steel, hence the comment that stainless steels are used in high-quality knives. That said, all steel does corrode, as you pointed out, so most survival knives are coated in some fashion, and any tool must be maintained. Regarding shape, I think you're right that drop and spear points are acceptable. If I had to put a rule of thumb on it, just as a guess, I'd say that the longer you're left waiting for a rescue, the more you'll want a refined tip--on the basis that the more bored you get, the more intricate will be the projects you assign yourself. :-) Good points. I didn't mean to say that stainless steels couldn't be used in high quality knives, especially one as nice as VG10. Regarding knife length, obviously needs differ from person to person. As you suggest, a nine-inch blade might be a tough squeeze in certain cockpits, not to mention how it impinges on the five-pound discretionary equipment limit. But beyond that sort of thing, my question to you is: can you employ a nine-inch blade safely with any degree of finesse? It would surely be great for hacking or splitting, but can you still whittle, drill, and cut fine grooves and holes with it without cutting off a finger? In my readings and discussions with instructors at Pensacola, it seemed a general agreement that six inches is the point at which you begin giving away control, and meanwhile our instructor seemed to be hacking, chiseling, and splitting just fine with a five-inch blade. What's your take? Well, I can use a 9 inch blade to make a spoon and a fish hook. I can use it to carve a fireboard. I can do these things safely, but not as easily as I could with a smaller blade. The spoon might also look like it was made for an ogre. In other words, I can often use a larger blade to get smaller jobs done when I can't say the opposite. It might not always be pretty, but it works. And brother, in a survival situation, getting the job done is what its all about. Hacking with a 5 inch blade is a joke. Sure, you can do it but it really is about as inefficient as an operation can get. Splitting and prying can be done using a smaller blade with less of an impedence. Chopping is really too far gone to be salvageable at that level. Not that I'd roll over and die if a 5 inch blade was all I had. The point is that IMO a larger blade accomplishes these tasks better and they are more important than having to eat with an ugly spoon. Now, somewhat finer tasks like notching, grooving and even skinning aren't any trouble with a larger blade. Some of that goes back to training and field testing your equipment. Still typing with all ten fingers here. Finally, and to this I demand your response: I also want to point out that opening the price range up to $150 yields a selection of knives far, FAR superior to both the Seal Pup and the A1. The smallest blade I would go with would be 6 inches and the largest probably around 9 or 10 inches. They can be had for under $150 in 5150, S7, 5160, 1095, and 52100. Sometimes in A2 at that price, but only if you snag a great deal. I hesitate to add SK5 because of some QC issues, but it should be pretty safe. Another reason for field testing your own equipment. List, and be specific. I'm still in the market, here, so please, sir, give me some names of your recommendations. Assume price is no object. (I try not to make price an object when I'm betting my life on the thing I'm buying.) I'd be more than happy to. Ranger Knives RD9, RD7, or RD6 The RD line was recently purchased by Ontario knife company, but is still overseen by Justin at Ranger Knives. Justin can also make a custom blade to your specs for a reasonable price. These are heavy duty, bruitish knives. Having one made from a 3/16 stock would make it a little lighter. For survival purposes I would have the allen screws replaced with rivets. Scrap Yard Knife Company Scrapper 6, Yard Guard, Dog Father, Son of Dog Father, Dumpster Mutt, Regulator Bowie Probably the most indestructible knives on the planet. Swamp Rat Knife Works Mischief 6, Mischief 9, Chopweiler, Camp Tramp, Battle Rat Slightly less tough than Scrap Yard, better edge retention. Busse Combat Basic 6, Basic 7, Basic 9, Atomic Steel Heart, Fusion Steel Heart, Jack Tactical, Natural Outlaw, Badger Attack Tactical Allllmost as tough as Scrap Yard with excellent edge retention and pretty good corrosion resistance. Bark River Knife and Tool Bravo - 2, Rogue, Hudson Bay, Golok, Becker Knife and Tool BK7, BK9, BK2. Recently bought by Kabar. Cold Steel SRK, Recon Scout, Trail Master The only knives I would trust my life to come from Ranger Knives and one of the three Busse companies. That's a pretty basic rundown before I go to bed. It isn't very descriptive, I'm sorry. Don't hesitate to ask me any questions you might have.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 15:06:46 GMT
I can't tell you how pleased I am to have this information. I will certainly be in touch with you if I have further questions about any of these knives, as I research them. I hope the originator of this thread will benefit from what's been said here, but that's no longer terribly important to me. I am benefitting.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 6:07:41 GMT
So I've looked into some of your suggestions, and I only have one real response: GOOD GOD.I do see what you mean, though. The Busse-types are similarly ridiculous. Between them and these Rangers, it seems like Can't-Go-Wrong territory. You could hang a car from that thing. Sideways. (Incidentally, the above model RD-7 is my favorite at this time.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 7:32:42 GMT
Quite frankly if I am taking one knife with me (which I'd never do, but for this scenario I will make an exception) and it can be any knife it would have to be this; Busse fusion battle mistress. One day I hope to be able to afford one of these, they may not be the sexiest knives around but in terms of survival, hell yes! Watch what this knife is put through and then tell me it isn't worth the money if your life depended on it. As to being able to do other tasks like whittling and drilling, all you'd need is a sleeve of some type to be used as a make shift handle. Although I can use a longer knife like it a short one and ten inches when you know what you are doing is not that long. Although like most of you I would prefer a shorter knife, which is why I wouldn't take my wraith. If you need a knife longer than 8 inches you are up semprini creek anyway. A survival knife should be balanced to throw, to cut well, to be tough, sturdy and rugged, be able to handle all climates from sub temperatures to the kind of temperatures we get in outback Oz. It must be fast in the hand, have multiple draw options. The final rule for a survival knife or any situation is always have a back up.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 7:46:13 GMT
I generally take a small drop point knife and a cold steel bolo machete with me when I go camping.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 7:57:36 GMT
I would be confident taking something like this with me; Looks like a great little set and for the price I'm not sure you would find much better. Definitely going to have to get another product from these guys at some point.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 12:49:32 GMT
Personally i like something small that i can take on my belt webbing but good enough so i can clear bush and scrub when setting up a camp site before last light (apart from my my fold up saw). For this I personally like to use a khukri. We get issues machetes but a khukri seems more 'mobile' to me. As for cqb; if i can't drop the guy using my rifle then i'm either a very VERY bad shot either with my rifle or i've failed my close quarter drills with my pistol. Either way: I need to think about why i haven't dropped this guy with a good doubletap with my my primary weapon. A bladed weapon e.g a bayonet should be a last resort if you've stuffed up so bad that you need to use it
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 20:03:13 GMT
Quite frankly if I am taking one knife with me (which I'd never do, but for this scenario I will make an exception) and it can be any knife it would have to be this; Busse fusion battle mistress. One day I hope to be able to afford one of these, they may not be the sexiest knives around but in terms of survival, hell yes! Watch what this knife is put through and then tell me it isn't worth the money if your life depended on it. As to being able to do other tasks like whittling and drilling, all you'd need is a sleeve of some type to be used as a make shift handle. Although I can use a longer knife like it a short one and ten inches when you know what you are doing is not that long. Although like most of you I would prefer a shorter knife, which is why I wouldn't take my wraith. If you need a knife longer than 8 inches you are up semprini creek anyway. A survival knife should be balanced to throw, to cut well, to be tough, sturdy and rugged, be able to handle all climates from sub temperatures to the kind of temperatures we get in outback Oz. It must be fast in the hand, have multiple draw options. The final rule for a survival knife or any situation is always have a back up. As awesome as I think the battle mistress is, I left it out of my list of Busse recommendations. I think that directly because of its phenomenal chopping prowess it becomes very poorly adapted to finer movements. It isn't because of the dimensions of the blade, although it is a little broader than just about anything else. It certainly isn't because you can't get that huge thick blade screaming sharp either. Its just too heavy. Not too heavy to use in many applications and not too heavy to pack (though it is hefty and I'm sure some would disagree). It is rather certain aspects of that weight concerning certain movements. Even with a sleeve used to grip it up by the tip, there is just too much weight hanging off the back end. Its too much of a lopsided sacrifice, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 21:26:20 GMT
So I've looked into some of your suggestions, and I only have one real response: GOOD GOD.I do see what you mean, though. The Busse-types are similarly ridiculous. Between them and these Rangers, it seems like Can't-Go-Wrong territory. You could hang a car from that thing. Sideways. (Incidentally, the above model RD-7 is my favorite at this time.) The RD7 is an excellent choice. I have an RD6 made by Justin and an RD9 made by Ontario. They are both great blades. Both are easy to sharpen and take a great edge. My RD9 usually still shaves after chopping/splitting enough wood for lunch and dinner fires. It is noticeably less sharp than when I started out, but I would say it holds its edge pretty well. I stripped the coatings from both knives. Just a personal preference. After quite a few outings with the RD9 the coating had begun to wear just a bit around the sweet spot for chopping. It really hadn't come off on the spine where it had been batoned. I really didn't have a reason to take it off, I just felt like it. As you can see, my RD9 has some surface corrosion. This knife gets almost no maintenance care. I go out, hike all day, chop and baton some wood (frequently green wood. I only mention that because it is more moist than dead wood), throw it in the sheath, come back home, retouch the edge, throw it back in the sheath and forget it until the next hike. I hit it with some 0000 steel wool and WD40 about once a month. Rode hard, put away wet, still looks pretty good. Definitely nothing but a little surface discoloration. Now, several things need to be said about the Ontario renditions. I will start with the most important. Justin's RD series was always manufactured without any distal taper. The stock was 1/4 inch all the way out to the drop of the point. The Ontario RD9 I have has a noticeable taper toward the tip. Not extreme, but it is probably 3/16 at the drop of the point. This is good for weight and fine movement, but a sacrifice in chopping and tip strength. I don't have one of Justin's RD9s so I cannot compare the difference in the feel of chopping. It may not be perceptible, but by design Justin's should be the better chopper. These difference may never amount to anything in less than an all out destruction test, but they need to be mentioned. Of less importance, Ontario doesn't always fit the micarta scales as well as Justin did and they are not as well contoured as his finished products. Unless they are drilled wrong, this is nothing that cannot be fixed with a belt sander or an email to Justin. One positive difference in the new production is that Ontario uses larger allen screws than Justin did. However, for the greatest dependability I would have Justin replace them with rivets or pins anyway. Another advantage of the RD knives is that they come with jumpable nylon sheaths. The sheath itself is of pretty good quality, but it is nothing really special. The distal taper in the Ontario RD series may not be an issue on a blade with the dimensions of the RD9, but it might have a greater impact on the characteristics of a shorter blade. Just a thought. Another though is the rock solid warranty. If you manage to screw it up, they will replace it or there will be hell to pay when Justin finds out. Likewise, Justin stood behind all his work with the same attitude. A warranty may not be much help when your life is on the line, but it can be used as some indication of what is expected of these knives and what they are designed to endure. Namely, anything. If I am unable to convince you to get a larger knife, this would still be an awesome choice.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 23:31:14 GMT
HAR har har. Yeah, well, I have yet to see what the Parachute Riggers will let me carry, and how much of my 5 pounds will be taken up by other discretionary gear. They don't even include fishing kits anymore. A lot of basic stuff is now left "discretionary." This is not to say that if I get a 6 or 7 inch blade for my flight gear and find it easy to handle, I won't get a bigger one for my Bug Out Bag.
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