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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 17:28:37 GMT
I know there are mixed feelings about Accusharps, but let me ask this question. Is creating a crude but usable edge with an Accusharp that I will have to further modify into a nice edge with other methods really so much worse than paying for a mediocre sharpening service from a supplier/dealer that is going to result in nearly the same situation? The only reason I would pay someone for initial sharpening is because setting the bevel is the hard part. With an Accusharp, I can put a crappy v bevel on there myself for next to nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 17:44:04 GMT
the reason we all hate accusharp is because you don't want a bevel on your swords. you want it to be one surface from the flat surface down to the edge.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 18:05:22 GMT
And yet a secondary bevel is exactly what many dealers charge ~ $20 to put on your sword.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 15, 2009 18:20:05 GMT
For myself, I tried to use the accusharp early on and made a mess of the edge doing so. I have used MRL'a and KOA's sharpening service (which I suspect is the same one) and got a lot better edge than I could get using the accusharp, albeit with a secondary bevel. That may well be because they have more practice with such devices. At any rate I have found their sharpening service acceptable to me. I'll probably use them again on Windlass blades and the like. Easy enough for me to refine it now that I have my belt sander. If I'm I'm going to sharpen one myself, I go straight to the belt sander. Some find the accusharp adequate, to each their own.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 15, 2009 18:34:59 GMT
Ric's experience is exactly the reason we don't like them. yes, you can MAYBE put a semi-serviceable edge on a sword with one if you are very careful but it is very easy to remove WAY too much steel and in uneven patches and glumps. the sharpening services aren't all that good either but at least they don't destroy the sword. best thing to do get a belt sander and sharpen your own. it's not even very expensive by the time you've paid for sharpening on 3 or 4 swords you will have paid for a belt sander. gosh maybe I should go into business. . .
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jul 15, 2009 18:54:52 GMT
I got one of those accusharp (or similar product) thingeys a while ago to put a quick edge on a couple of craptanas I had lying around and wanted to cut with. It didn't work well at all for me. I don't think they're really made to remove a large amount of metal, like on a Windlass, I think there more for maintaining an edge on a cheap knife or maybe a machete. For me it was quicker to draw file an edge and I got much better results. Now I do all my edges that way.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 18:57:26 GMT
LOL @ kraptanas...I love it!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 19:17:23 GMT
The issue with the accusharp isn't the secondary bevel, it's the angle. In fact my hanwei came with a secondary bevel that was too steep and I basically had to remove the edge before I could put an edge on it that was good...and it wasn't even as steep as what an accusharp puts on it. But because the angle was too steep, it was an extra 3 hours of work to fix the edge...for something like the windlass sharpening, that can be fixed up in an hour with a belt sander or 2 by hand (including time for a 400 grit finish). If you had just the dull edge, your looking at an extra 2-3 hours of work. 20 bucks to save 2-3 hours of work seems like a deal to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 21:32:46 GMT
Pure luck? Luck with choosing blades with good geometry for it? Some simple little trick of how to do it? I don't know, but I've been doing the edge with an accusharp (or equivalent) for a hell of a long time and found no problems.
In fact, not only no problems but absolutely no quantifiable difference between an accusharp created/maintained edge and an appleseed one in cutting. (Aesthetic differences, yes, but not a whit of drop off in performance.)
To be fair, most of the time this has been light work maintaining an existing good edge, e.g. the CS Shamshir or my Atrim Swedish. But there still have been plenty edges I created this way too. One of the things that attracted me to this site was precisely Paul's account of using the accusharp--which I found brilliant simplicity that corroborated my own experience doing the same thing long before.
My MRL/DT "Danish Viking" was the first, over twenty years ago, and I've edged at least a dozen other Windlasses since then with nothing but stellar results. I'm not sure what some of you are doing differently, but my own experience is that secondary bevels and accusharps are just fine.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 21:35:13 GMT
Yeah its worth it,
I use an accusharp on a few of my swords, its good to put a rudamentry edge on bit it strips metal off rather then a good even grind. I only use it because our hardware stores are crap and dont have any files more decent then a basic 10 buck rough one and I havent got a belt sander yet. For cheap blades its not so bad but never let it touch anything you paid more then 200 dollars for.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 15, 2009 21:49:52 GMT
Pure luck? Luck with choosing blades with good geometry for it? Some simple little trick of how to do it? I don't know, but I've been doing the edge with an accusharp (or equivalent) for a hell of a long time and found no problems. In fact, not only no problems but absolutely no quantifiable difference between an accusharp created/maintained edge and an appleseed one in cutting. (Aesthetic differences, yes, but not a whit of drop off in performance.) To be fair, most of the time this has been light work maintaining an existing good edge, e.g. the CS Shamshir or my Atrim Swedish. But there still have been plenty edges I created this way too. One of the things that attracted me to this site was precisely Paul's account of using the accusharp--which I found brilliant simplicity that corroborated my own experience doing the same thing long before. My MRL/DT "Danish Viking" was the first, over twenty years ago, and I've edged at least a dozen other Windlasses since then with nothing but stellar results. I'm not sure what some of you are doing differently, but my own experience is that secondary bevels and accusharps are just fine. well to each their own I guess, but there's no way I'll be convinced of this. I suppose the bottom line here is - if it works for you, then good. I think I could get an accusharp to put a decent edge on if I really tried, but I'm not willing to risk it. the only think I use accusharp on is scissors.
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Post by enkidu on Jul 15, 2009 22:26:51 GMT
This is what i can from my experience : they are a quick and easy way to get an edge on a blade. Quick and easy thing always come with a price, in this case it's the fact that you have chances that you'll get an uneven edge ( ceramic blades quickly unaligned themselves ), large strips of metal off the blade that eventually undermine your edge retention and improper edge angle. But, would i recommend it for a low cost sword for some bottle cutting fun ? Sure, why not. I started the edge on my DSA Gothic with one ( before they trimmed down there thickness ) and i'm glad i did it, it was a pain to sharpen ! Will it cut ? Yep. Will it be quick ? Yep. Will it utterly scrap the blade ? nope. As the cosmetic value goes... you'll get a secondary bevel with some uneven scratches now and then for sure, which can be substentially disminished with a scotch-brite/3M whatever pad. But i would never touch a 300 and + sword with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 23:06:59 GMT
The issue with the accusharp isn't the secondary bevel, it's the angle. In fact my hanwei came with a secondary bevel that was too steep and I basically had to remove the edge before I could put an edge on it that was good...and it wasn't even as steep as what an accusharp puts on it. But because the angle was too steep, it was an extra 3 hours of work to fix the edge...for something like the windlass sharpening, that can be fixed up in an hour with a belt sander or 2 by hand (including time for a 400 grit finish). If you had just the dull edge, your looking at an extra 2-3 hours of work. 20 bucks to save 2-3 hours of work seems like a deal to me. What kind of angles are we talking about here? What angle did he the Hanwei come with, what angle did the accusharp put on it, and what angle did you end up with?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 23:13:14 GMT
See that's just the thing. The shortcomings of the Accusharp, for all intents and purposes, appear to be the same as those found with shoddy dealer sharpening. The only thing I've heard that's any different is that a few people have said the Accusharp might remove more steel. Is there anything else that makes it different?
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Post by enkidu on Jul 15, 2009 23:19:44 GMT
Depends on how shoddy your dealer is
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Jul 15, 2009 23:32:49 GMT
I personally would rather take the time to sharpen a few inches of the edge at a time than swipe an accusharpe down the edge with quick strokes. I have more control over the geometry with a #2 bastard file or a bader/belt sander than I ever will with an accusharp. Plus with an accusharp, as others have said, strips too much metal away. By the time you get an edge with the tool and then try to roll it into a leticular edge, you'll have an edge with little surface. It will then chip and possibly do worse. Then again, this is just my experience, to each his own I say. I'll never agree or advise the use of these types of tools, but I'll not brow beat another for doing so. If the results satisfy you, that's all that matters.
And for the record, I think most sharpening services offered uses a belt sander, not an accusharp.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 23:57:28 GMT
The issue with the accusharp isn't the secondary bevel, it's the angle. In fact my hanwei came with a secondary bevel that was too steep and I basically had to remove the edge before I could put an edge on it that was good...and it wasn't even as steep as what an accusharp puts on it. But because the angle was too steep, it was an extra 3 hours of work to fix the edge...for something like the windlass sharpening, that can be fixed up in an hour with a belt sander or 2 by hand (including time for a 400 grit finish). If you had just the dull edge, your looking at an extra 2-3 hours of work. 20 bucks to save 2-3 hours of work seems like a deal to me. What kind of angles are we talking about here? What angle did he the Hanwei come with, what angle did the accusharp put on it, and what angle did you end up with? The hanwei came with about a 20 degree angle...the accusharp does close to 25 if your pressing hard. The angle on it now is about a 15 degree angle at the edge. Which is about what is on my albion and gen 2.
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Post by mrkrinkle on Jul 16, 2009 0:03:42 GMT
Used one once, never again. But I guess it depends on what you are sharpening. I'm strictly a katana, wak and tanto sort and I am content with spending time with my sanding blocks and leather strop with jewelers rouge.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2009 0:47:19 GMT
What kind of angles are we talking about here? What angle did he the Hanwei come with, what angle did the accusharp put on it, and what angle did you end up with? The hanwei came with about a 20 degree angle...the accusharp does close to 25 if your pressing hard. The angle on it now is about a 15 degree angle at the edge. Which is about what is on my albion and gen 2. I think 40 degrees inclusive should be fine for me. It has served me well on many knives that see some heavier cutting. 25 degrees per side is indeed a bit thick.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 16, 2009 0:48:57 GMT
Avery, do you have it on good authority that most services use a belt sander or is this just something you've heard? I'm not doubting you or anything I'm just curious because it is so easy to avoid putting a secondary bevel on with a belt sander that I have to think they are doing a poor job of it if that is what they are using. who-ever "they" are anyway.
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