Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2009 1:17:25 GMT
Pure luck? Luck with choosing blades with good geometry for it? Some simple little trick of how to do it? I don't know, but I've been doing the edge with an accusharp (or equivalent) for a hell of a long time and found no problems. In fact, not only no problems but absolutely no quantifiable difference between an accusharp created/maintained edge and an appleseed one in cutting. (Aesthetic differences, yes, but not a whit of drop off in performance.) To be fair, most of the time this has been light work maintaining an existing good edge, e.g. the CS Shamshir or my Atrim Swedish. But there still have been plenty edges I created this way too. One of the things that attracted me to this site was precisely Paul's account of using the accusharp--which I found brilliant simplicity that corroborated my own experience doing the same thing long before. My MRL/DT "Danish Viking" was the first, over twenty years ago, and I've edged at least a dozen other Windlasses since then with nothing but stellar results. I'm not sure what some of you are doing differently, but my own experience is that secondary bevels and accusharps are just fine. well to each their own I guess, but there's no way I'll be convinced of this. I suppose the bottom line here is - if it works for you, then good. I think I could get an accusharp to put a decent edge on if I really tried, but I'm not willing to risk it. the only think I use accusharp on is scissors. Seriously? Because the one thing I used an Accusharp on once in mistake was precisely scissors--a haircutting pair that I ruined. It had a chisel grind, as have most scissors I've taken a look at lately. About the last thing to use an Accusharp on--even less than any sword.
|
|
Avery
Member
Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by Avery on Jul 16, 2009 1:41:54 GMT
Avery, do you have it on good authority that most services use a belt sander or is this just something you've heard? I'm not doubting you or anything I'm just curious because it is so easy to avoid putting a secondary bevel on with a belt sander that I have to think they are doing a poor job of it if that is what they are using. who-ever "they" are anyway. I'll never be one to worry about being doubted Tom. I have somewhat a decent authority that this is the case, but I'll go you one further. If you've ever ordered a blade from say...windlass, the first thing you do( or at least I do) is inspect the edge. Accusharps leave a tell - tell streaking pattern on the bevel. No matter how good you are with these things, the result is still blatant. Also, when you sharpen a blade on a belt sander with out finishing it you can see the tell - tell downward sanding pattern from the belt. There are other signs, but at the moment we'll leave it at that. Now, take a look at a factory sharpened blade from...for instance...windlass. Do you see the steep edge geometry you'd have with an accusharp; or do you see the tell tell signs of a quickly done belt job?
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 16, 2009 2:13:02 GMT
thank you sir, while that should answer my question well, I have only ever received a windlass sword in the unsharpened state and I don't have all that many swords so I have not had the chance to see this.
I assume the answer I would find is belt sander.
this begs the question: then why can't they get a decent non-secondary-bevel edge on it? I mean I can sharpen a Windlass sword from blunt to razor sharp in about half an hour to fourty five minutes, and that includes about 15 to 20 minutes of stropping on the leather. so why can't they give a sword a quick 15 minute 500 grit sand and obtain a proper basic edge geometry? I'm really puzzled by this. I mean it is EASY to do.
|
|
Avery
Member
Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by Avery on Jul 16, 2009 2:39:24 GMT
thank you sir, while that should answer my question well, I have only ever received a windlass sword in the unsharpened state and I don't have all that many swords so I have not had the chance to see this. I assume the answer I would find is belt sander. this begs the question: then why can't they get a decent non-secondary-bevel edge on it? I mean I can sharpen a Windlass sword from blunt to razor sharp in about half an hour to fourty five minutes, and that includes about 15 to 20 minutes of stropping on the leather. so why can't they give a sword a quick 15 minute 500 grit sand and obtain a proper basic edge geometry? I'm really puzzled by this. I mean it is EASY to do. That's the question I would like to see answered as well. Given that we have so many vendors who frequent these boards, you'd think windlass would have a rep floating around too. I wonder why they don't.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2009 2:41:54 GMT
I think Tom's method (belt sander) is the bomb. Where the Accusharp shines is in using something like a machete. The metal is the same thickness throughout and for a tool like this, you can touch it up and keep going with the job you're working on. I agree to use them on swords other than once is detrimental.
|
|
|
Post by hotspur on Jul 16, 2009 3:57:58 GMT
Lacking both good shop space and lacking powered grinders, I use an Accusharp for bulk metal removal on blunts instead of starting with a file. Blending and more stock removal with a file and then stones. Very few of what I sharpen have been polished in such a way that my grinds dissapear visually. A low angle, such as ground by the boys at MRL/AC in Georgia would virtually dissapear with further polishing longwise. Accusharps can be used heavily or with a great deal of finnese. I use mine only as suitable for gross stock removal. Others have some deft touch that lets them use quite lightly. I have little patience for sharpening threads anywhere but have offered this next item in most I have posted in during more recent years. The Boker Vulkanus sharpener is an Accusharp plus in that it is spring loaded and will adjust to any given blade geometry. It has carbide on one side, with ceramic on the other. There are cheaper plastic buit versions of the heavier one. Boker also sells water stones. www.knivesplus.com/bokersharpenerbk-hs1.htmlI have lost patience with even the DMT brand diamond offerings but a lot is probably that I have simply overdone in some applications and have gone back to a tried and true aluminum oxide bench stone for big jobs. There are a few very nice wheel grinders that do as nice as one can get. There are also flap wheels that do a fantastic job on edge maintenance. More than just strop plus those flap wheels are. In the end, I continue to find sharpening and sharpening threads a fairly self taught and subjective experience for just about all. I certainly haven't got all the answers and still pick up tips forty plus years of edge care. I know what works for me and in my given circumstances. To each their own really. I do know that the horror some exclaim regarding secondary bevels really needs to be taken in context regarding just how steep that secondary edge is. Cheers Hotspur; Oh yes, incidentally, there is a Windlass/MRL/AC account user here.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 16, 2009 4:18:45 GMT
Hotspur, as always you offer very sound info and sagely advice. I think you hit on something that is really important and that is the angle of the secondary bevel. in this I absolutley agree, the angle is important. if done well a secondary bevel can indeed be pretty good. sadly, there's not a lot of examples of that I'm aware of.
on a similar note secondary bevels often occured on historical swords (as I understand it) due to hastily sharpened edges done the night before a battle or deployment. there are military manuals from more recent history that talk about sharpening cavalry sabres and how to do it, when to do it, and how to care for your sword. one actually advises against using the sabre as a cooking poker as it will ruin the temper. I guess that goes to show sword abuse is as old as swords themselves and not just a modern thing at all. in the end the people who used swords were warriors, not artisans.
I also agree that each person has to find what works for them. for me it's the belt sander. it costs about the same as that contraption you have there in your post but I have to buy belts so it's a bit more. for my preference though it is worth it.
I still wish more companies would offer sharpening to the quality level of Valiant Armory's practical line. they really are the standard of a good edge on a budget sword as far as I'm concerned.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2009 4:43:23 GMT
On a blade where special consideration has been made to provide historically accurate or thoughtfully designed geometry I would not use an accusharp. If its just an edged piece of crap, there is no reason not to restore sharpness with an accusharp except that you probably need the practice for when you properly restore your better blades.
On say a simple Case knife I would never use a accusharp. On a Benchmade, Emerson, Lone Wolf, Al Mar or whatever other quality knife comes to mind I would never, ever, ever talk to you again if you used an accusharp on it. If you used it on a Randall I would punch you. OK, maybe not but I would be very dissapointed in you. I know a guy who had a Singer 1911 refinished in nickel; I would treat you they way I treat that guy.
On a $3 crap pocket knife, the kind they sell at the check out counter of the hardware store, why not?
Now take the equivelent swords for those knives and you see where I stand.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2009 5:39:28 GMT
quick question: do western swords usually have a secondary bevel for an edge? thats the impression i seem to be getting and i don't actually know... i strictly use japanese styled swords as thats what i train in, and thats where my interest lies. and thats why i give a cold shoulder to accusharp because any "katana" with a secondary bevel is just a slo to me
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 16, 2009 5:58:31 GMT
Flashingsteel, sadly a great many western swords DO have secondary bevel and for some reason it is considered more acceptable than when on katana. I would like to change that attitude in the community but I may be just dreaming. Some brands (ones that I typically call good) like Valiant Armory, Gen2, ATrim, and Albion, etc. do not have secondary bevels typically speaking, but many, many do. or they come unsharpened and you can pay $20+ and wait an extra few days to get a secondary bevel ground on for you. I'll give you three guesses how I feel about that, but you'll only need one.
|
|
|
Post by hotspur on Jul 16, 2009 6:46:59 GMT
Gosh, my Gus Trim 1319 XIIa (2003) and Jason Dingledine via Albion Gus Trim "Classic" XIIIa (bought 2001 made in 1999 or early 2000 iirc) both retain secondary edges provided from the sources. Gus may bother to polish better than he used to but an in depth inquiry from Gus (hisself) had at times in the past explained that a close look at the transitions from both his own work, Albion and A&A will all show a transition in the final bevel geometry. In a great sense, these good basic grinds are then blended secondary bevels which would be quite apparent if not polished as well. Gus started grinding primay bevels thin to the point where he actually backed off a little bit because someone beefed that wacking a helmet and getting a chip went to the extreme many bottle cutters appreciate. My 1319 is/was a product of that era whre folk were complaining about thicker edges than what Gus had prefered as more durable. The standard for a long time was vertical cutting in 1/4" plywood. My older Gus sword was at a time when Albion was getting the swords from him as blunt, then sharpening as an option. Jason did an interesting job on my XIIIa and I'll see if I have pictures of the tip still up somewhere. Those transition to what some would refer to as chisel grinds (albeit incredibly shallow) on that wafer thin blade. It is my time with the sword mebbe but the only unpegged wara stump cutoffs I have managed., despite being only being able to do some other trick shots with my PK. those categorizing Windlass as whippy wouldn't like that sword at all. It was one of Gus' favorites and lost his personal sword in a shop break in. Head to head with an Albion Baron last fall when comparing to my 1319, the differences in capability while cutting Mugen Dachi tatami omote were negligable. Yes, it could be said that these Gus swords (from the day) have seen some blending of the secondaries but I have never put much of a different geometry through lightly honing (lengthwise) My PK has a hairline secondary visible (six years and counting), as I don't take the time to polish that one more. Check out Keith Larman's thoughts on katana honing, one might be suprised. I have polished more than a couple of antiques that were vandalized and continue to work on most of them. I fret more about scratches in the priimaries, even on my own knives. That did lead me to polishing out a sword I got back from a friend. More that he had left ugliness on the primaries than the fact that he had used stones at a low angle. Some medieval types from Albion will show the secondaries more apparently than others when looking beneath the finish polish. Some are actually deisgned and ground to include those secondary grinds. I have no blade at all here that I cannot get at least hair scraping sharp at a 600 grit level. 200grit edges do make for nice letter opener and I do keep most of my kithcen stuff above a 400-600 grit but the edges themselves on swords will often benefit from a bit of toothiness. Don't forget to angle your teeth I continue to hand file thicknesses and a belt grinder or other neat machine would probably make my life easier but I do get by. I don't know exactly where my Accusharp is at the moment but I haven't just tossed it away as useless. Cheers Hotspur; even with a sticky sharpening thread, these will propagate indefinitely
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 16, 2009 7:17:59 GMT
I have heard this point of view before and find it interesting. maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about but it sounds to me like I wouldn't consider the sword edges you describe to have a secondary bevel. I noticed on the Albion Norman I had for a while that it had a barely perceptable secondary but it didn't realy bother me, no I don't like my sword to look like an Outback Steakhouse knife, that's for sure. I suspect that at a really low level the edges I put on with my belt sander are secondary to some degree but when you have to split hairs that closely I kinda just figure call it primary.
I just want to say thanks again Hotspur, for the information, I always get excited to read a thread when I see you've commented. you are right on target about this topic propagating endlessly, just I'm not quite done learning yet and I keep thinking if I pay attention I'll learn something new (I get to say this every day of my life) so I get involved in things like this.
I still think accusharps are at least realated to the devil if not direct spawn. low calorie diet evil maybe? but still evil dang it!
|
|
|
Post by hotspur on Jul 16, 2009 7:31:05 GMT
A very nice picture of Ben Sweet's sister XIIIa from the Albion/Gus days and my crappy picture of my sibling from the first brood of these Gus had ground. These show the one sided grind towards the points of these particular swords. Mine is not just fuzzy but shows some rust and a nick or two from being a quite used sword. I think Albion's more recent video showed someone shooting the length of the blade on a belt grinder. I'm not sure how you are approaching the task at home. Another home picture from John Lundemo will show him running horizontal but in the plane he has his rig set up. At any rate, those two old day XIIIa examples are so thin in crossection that they feather out towards the tip on alternating sides. Sharpening was an option with these first Gus swords through some outlets. Lee Reeves is another that had been working with Gus at the starts of his runs. Bubinga wood grips, yum. Mine is still (re-worked)covered in Howy Waddell deerskin. Cheers Hotspur; don't mind me, I'm just babbling
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2009 10:47:58 GMT
Flashingsteel, sadly a great many western swords DO have secondary bevel and for some reason it is considered more acceptable than when on katana. I would like to change that attitude in the community but I may be just dreaming. Some brands (ones that I typically call good) like Valiant Armory, Gen2, ATrim, and Albion, etc. do not have secondary bevels typically speaking, but many, many do. or they come unsharpened and you can pay $20+ and wait an extra few days to get a secondary bevel ground on for you. I'll give you three guesses how I feel about that, but you'll only need one. I checked out a great CS viking the other day that had a beautiful single bevel edge on it.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 16, 2009 13:39:03 GMT
Hotspur, again thanks for the info, you are like a living repository of modern sword history. I know what you are talking about in that Albion video I've seen it i couldn't shoot the length of any blade longer than about 4 inches at home. sounds like Albion and Gus have both improved their game over the year (which is to be expected) and by all means continue babbling, anytime you do that I hear some cool sword stories.
herbert, that sound pretty yummy I may have to take a look at them, the only coldsteel sword I have came with a secondary and not a good one.
when I got my MHAT XII (a Gus Trim 1429 reworked into a type XII by Mike) it had a very small secondary bevel but it cut pretty well. in fact it cut as well as my V.A. practical arming but not really better, just about the same. it cut well but it felt a little rough doing it. So I hand sharpened it with some 400 grit and then some 800 to remove the secondary bevel. I didn't really make it sharper so much as I just blended that secondary into the primary it is right now the dullest of all my swords. it is right now the best cutting sword I own at least when used in a single hand. this thing sheers through mats on thick bamboo and leaves the cut-off top standing silently on top. the only thing I changed significantly was the edge geometry. I have hit a 14 guage steel helium can (empty) with it and inflicted no damage to the sword (but not a lot to the can either) so I think I can say the edge I have on it would be legitimate against armored foes. still not going to cut through the armor but won't be destroyed by contact with it. I've done the same 14ga. can test with many of my swords even the ones that are shaving sharp like my VA practical and no edge damage was done to them with full strength strikes on the can.
|
|
Avery
Member
Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by Avery on Jul 16, 2009 23:01:12 GMT
Tom, I tried to take some Pics of the Leurterit I have, but couldn't get a good shot of the bevel. It is obviously done with a belt sander, though. No doubt in my mind. @ Hotspur- Thanks for all the input, you truely are a fount of knowledge!
|
|
|
Post by hotspur on Jul 17, 2009 4:25:03 GMT
Thanks Tom and Avery,
I'm happy to add any of the histories of these modern swords that I can but I am hardly more than a smart parrot at times. Having hung around the various boards for a good long time is most of the sources. Jean Binck recanting Napoleonic military sharpening and stuff like that do still come up in searches and where I often retreive them from. Even the two photos above were from a thread some months ago and had no idea where in my files those pictures were but I remembered the thread. A search term for bevel over at SFI and paired with Gus as the username (Angus Trim) will bring up the threads about Gus' edge evolution back to 2002. Thre are over 100 threads at SFI with the word Sharpening in the header (many of them include my mentioning that bit of trivia)
I shudder at tiimes to just recommend belt grinders for everyone as the best solution just because it can be a huge learning curve for some. No doubt a useful tool once set up and practiced. A real issue is that many have never sharpened even a knife and have limited experience with so much as an assortment of everyday hand tools.
Someone mentions they can't find good files where they live. Ummmm, HUH??? Okeedokee and I have to wonder. I know even I live under a rock regarding some things in life but the internet is everywhere these days.
Cheers
Hotspur; I di though at times have a hard time with finding things myself
|
|
|
Post by YlliwCir on Jul 18, 2009 3:48:00 GMT
For your consideration, a MRL sharpened Windlass edge. Edited to change KOA to MRL.
|
|
|
Post by hotspur on Jul 18, 2009 16:00:14 GMT
I have never contacted KOA regarding whether they sharpen in house or not. If they do, I would have to assume all their wares were available as sharps. It is pretty easy to assume that Windlass offerings are sharpened in Georgia and drop shipped or routed through KOA for the sharps. They look ok to me but I have never ordered a sharp from Windlass. Some fun plates. There are some more great art/paintings of sharpening swords but I have had these handy for posting. Jonathan can reference the Boer War photo from somewhere and the illustration is on the acknowledgments pages of the Flayderman/Mowbray American Swords title (Medicus collection). Wheel type grinders have been sharpening swords for a great many centuries. One of the other pictures I have somewhere is a drawing of Prussian hussars sharpening their swords on a building's stone steps. Cheers Hotspur; I have used concrete and granite to remove rust and hone edges
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 18, 2009 16:28:18 GMT
a drawing of Prussian hussars sharpening their swords on a building's stone steps. I have used concrete and granite to remove rust and hone edges now THAT is hard-core. I've read about stuff like this in fiction and figured it was probably historically accurate but had no refference. I bet they put a secondary bevel on it too! lol Hotspur, you've been such a boon to this thread I'd love to give you a Karma whether you like it or not but you are opted out and I don't have the option. so here's a cosmic karma *click* I think that many historic swords MUST have had secondary bevels on them simply because they were sharpened in the field or by folks who just didn't have the training and knowledge to know better. if it weren't for the internet and more specifically this site I wouldn't know any better either. too bad for the knights and soldiers of old they didn't have the web for reference.
|
|