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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 12, 2021 2:53:10 GMT
I'd like to point out that while oil quenched is not water quenched, to many of us oil quenching in the industry allows us access to affordable and perfectly serviceable blades for the purpose of Iai and tameshigiri on tatame omote. Are they attractive blades? Not especially. Are the fittings quality? Somewhat rarely. Would I want to take one into "real battle"? No. However, my katana still see use. They don't just hang on a wall. I could easily havr spent as much on an alluminu bladed Iaito, but instead have the weight of steel and option to cut normal targets. They fit a purpose at a price point that is accessible to more people. I don't see the point in trying to shame anyone here who owns an oil quenched blade when their expectations are properly managed. You absolutely could take an oil quenched blade into a real battle and it would hold up just as well. Oil quenched makes a blade that's far more than just "serviceable".
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 12, 2021 2:51:58 GMT
If they are wall hanger makers like you with nothing but rage to answer facts, not impressed. Now if one of their wall hanger oil katana can preform at Bugei, or even Kurin levels, I’ll eat my shirt. But nah, you don’t impress enough for me to throw out the science. I would love to see my so called Facebook account? I don’t even believe in Facebook because their lack of ethics. Try Twitter. And please, grow up. No more fantasies. It seems nearly all of Bugei’s high end blades if not all are water quenched. Nathaniel reports outstanding performance from them, on the level of wazamono swords. Kurin is a cheaper, but slightly less edge retention capable water sword. It still is outstanding and I’ve said one of the best production swords I’ve held. Good oil swords? I will leave that for someone else to write. undead merchant , so for the sake of the "debate" which of these blades are quenched in water and which is quenched in oil ? since you can tell which them apart by their "strength or strong" noiguchi . Notice how he completely ignored this post. Because he doesn't know.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 12, 2021 2:50:29 GMT
According to the CASiberia.com link shared by Brother Bob. Pretty interesting indeed. " Yes, all of our katana are differentially hardened (sometimes referred to as differential tempering) using the traditional claying and water quench method (except when traditional methods do not work as in our line of L6/Bainite katana or in the case of through hardened blades such as the Raptor Series Katana). This process creates the two steel structures (martensite / pearlite) that make a differentially hardened katana blade and the characteristic hamon of the Japanese katana. In some cases a chemical etchant is used to approximate the look of a hamon without differential harding, this is noted in the description and/or key features of the sword and at present represents only our range of iaito and two models in our Zatoichi blade series have etched hamons." So apparently almost all Hanwei blades 🤔 Yea but see, they say they use a chemical etch to make the hamon pop more. Way earlier in this thread, Braindead Merchant already trashed that technique and claimed its a fake wallhanger sword if you artificially bring out the hamon like that. That's also not surprising that hanwei uses a water quench. They have a robust factory and when many of their blades inevitably crack in the quench, they can afford to eat the loss. Cas Iberia/Hanwei has some 9260 and 5160 swords in their line, like the APOC tactical series using 9260, or the Hanwei Raptor line which all uses 5160 steel and I can guarantee all of those are oil quenched. DH blades can definitely be water or oil quenched, both methods are valid. If water helps them get a certain aesthetic look then that's why they do it.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 11, 2021 22:01:48 GMT
I think the sum of it is that oil is used as a medium to reduce breakage. We have some pictures of oil blades. If anyone has more side by sides that would be great. The more the merrier for comparison. The question about who uses oil on their blades is still out....but I would expect that not something easily found out. There's alot of technical works in the thread that will take time to sort out. But, thankful for the inputs. Bob There's no mystery. Join Bladesmithing for Beginners on FB. Or Knifemakers Heat treat on FB. Post that quenching in oil is subpar and refuse to listen to people who are smarter and see how long you last. Braindead Merchant won't do it. He's already been banned from other FB groups for his crap.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 11, 2021 21:38:06 GMT
What is the source of that figure? I thought cooling curves typically had two peaks corresponding to the transition from the vapour to nucleate stage? It does . Search up cooling curves of parks 50 and you’ll see . It’s slower than water but much , much safer with less chance of cracking than water but produces hardness similar to water . He only provides snippets of data that goes along with his preconceived notion of “truth” while bluntly disregarding everything else based on the aesthetics of the blade . Which can vary a lot based on what type of steel used , how much ashi is applied to the blade , what type of clay , how much clay is applied to the blade , austenitizing temperature, how long the blade is soaked at austenitizing temperature polish , grain refinement , alloying composition and etc . But no he only sums everything up as “bad” blade = “weak noiguchi” = edge prone to rolling therefore it must be an oil quenched blade . And failed to realize that quenching is only one part of the equation in a heat treatment protocol and that final hardness is dependent on the temper cycle after the austenitizing phase/quenching . As to which is better , chipping or rolling edge ? It depends on the application , if it’s a kitchen knife then high hardness but it’s prone to chipping because you favor higher edge retention . If it’s a sword , which experiences greater kinetic energy and greater level of force then rolling of an edge is better because you’re not physically losing parts of the hardened edge but rather the apex of the edge . The edge has much more ductility and can be push back into place not lost like in chipping . But rolling and chipping is dependent on other factors too such as edge geometry , how much niku is on the blade , final hardness , alloying elements , carbides , grain size , how thin is the apex of the edge , and others . Ask any bladesmith and swordsmith and they would say something similar to what I posted . This one comment just destroyed everything Braindead Merchant has said so far. Pretty much sums it up.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 11, 2021 21:24:10 GMT
Wow, this has turned into a very ugly thread. Any good information that may have been included has now been completely overtaken with anger, smugness, condescension and contempt, imo. I'm not sure there is any reason it should continue since it seems it is only getting more off track and spiteful and "facts" are becoming more clouded and confusing, so maybe someone will shut it down before we witness just how much uglier it can get. Too bad. Hardly any "facts" have came from Undead that are in any way relevant to what the OP asked. Or correct at all. But I admit I haven't read any if his comments since the second or third page of this thread. He spouted way too much BS for anything else he said to be taken seriously.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 11, 2021 5:12:52 GMT
I think I'm understanding a little bit about all of this. So it seems that the choice is whether you want your edge failure to be in the form of a chip, or in the form of an edge roll. Water makes a harder edge prone to chipping damage (lots of evidence of this), and oil makes edge roll damage (also lots of evidence of this) Which is easier to repair, a chip or a roll? I'm not even reading his drivel anymore. He's going on and on about boiling points and that has nothing to do with quenching a blade. He has yet to prove to anyone why boiling points matter when quenching. You can sit here and post a 100 times asking for some kind of evidence that his jargon has anything to do with the functionality of the blade and he won't do it, he just posts 20 paragraphs to muddle the water. All he cares about is cosmetic traditional BS. If he joined any blade making forum, he would have been booted within an hour. He won't actually do that period I could link him to any number of blade making groups and he would not last through the night. They don't stand for this crap. I saw somewhere on your earlier comment that you said one could more likely to chip rather than roll. I'm assuming that's based on something stupid that he said. That is inaccurate and false. Assuming the quench was performed properly, that's entirely dependent on what you temper the blade at. Untempered after the ultra awesome and superior to water Parks 50 quench, a steel like 1095 can achieve a hardness of about 64 to 65 HRC. Just as hard as any Japanese made blade. Tempering it at about 400F to 425F in an oven, the HRC range is about 59-61. Probably more like 60-61. Many, many, many antique Japanese blades aren't even in the 60s range. Some are. Many are not. Because their temperature control, although very good for what they had, was pure guess work based on experience, using their eyes. I think it's even safe to say most blades made back in the day were suboptimal. Certain more were made that were suboptimal than optimal. I'll state this again. He won't go into any professional blade making forums and talk like this. He is only doing it because it's on this website, where people are letting him run wild and actually sort of entertaining his extreme levels of BS. It's literally fancy trolling at this point. He is actually saying people like Walter Sorrells are hacks, probably would say the same about Rick Barrett and James Raw.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 10, 2021 6:18:31 GMT
Ok, then. I have a question. All spear throwing aside, am I correct in understanding that when making a traditional Katana sword from iron sand tamahagane that water quenching is the correct process for treating the blade, whereas for other types of steel, oil quenching is the preferred method - or if not preferred, then it does no appreciable harm or benefit to the finished blade? And wouldn't it be possible to oil quench a tamahagane steel blade using an oil that has the same delta T as water? If the martensite creation is due to the speed of the delta T and not any other attribute of either water or oil, then would it be safe to say that outside of tradition or legal restrictions, a tamahagane steel sword could theoretically be made using oil that simulates water? If so, I understand that the Japanese started with iron sand (a poor material) and thus required complex and labor intensive processing to make usable steel for the manufacture of the swords. But, what, if any, is the difference in the steel itself after processing from the ore? Isn't it just iron with carbon in it? What makes those iron molecules different from any other iron molecules? Honestly, I understand only the basics of metallurgy so I would like to know, fundamentally, are there circumstances where either water or oil is the ONLY choice for a certain process? And as far as the debate of research science vs field applications, all I have to say is that sometimes it's good to get your nose out of a book and listen to the people who are actually applying the theories in the real world. You can take field data and improve the text books by aligning the theory with the practical application data. Modern smiths can tell you all about modern methods and materials, and people from the past have left writings about their methods and field performance of the things they made. When the theoretical science doesn't match real world results, then it all has to be rethought. Science is never "settled", or it ceases to be science. No data is so good as to be unquestioned or dismissed off hand. In fact, many times one piece of outlying data has disrupted what scientists long thought to be an absolute truth. And in the case of these current threads, it would appear that experts in the field have published findings that don't agree with each other. That means that the science isn't "settled" and ALL the data MUST be reviewed and new data collected to find out WHY the findings don't agree. The possibility exists that both sides could be completely wrong. I'm not even participating directly with him anymore. I reported him but The Mods refuse to do anything about him. Apparently he has already been banned in other groups. He is trolling, hes saying factually incorrect information that can be detrimental to customers and people learning blade making. Many of the swords SBG sell are quenched in oil, there's no way they could afford to sell at affordable prices if they were cracking half their blades in water. So you'd think they would care that he's lying and saying all their swords are useless because they are oil quenched. Not being disrespectful to you, but "field application" isn't even accurate. Parks 50 is a commercial grade quenchant, made for the ultra specific purpose of quenching a large variety of steels. This isn't even Blademaking 101. We are below that right now, which is sad. I'm no scientist, but you could message the Maxim Oil website, and I'm sure they could easily provide data sheets and better explanations than me for the scientific process of creating a quenchant that is literally BETTER than water. Objectively better in the sense that, it gives you equal functional results as water, but with little to no chance of cracking a blade in the quench. Crucial for blade makers who need to put food on the table and need consistent quality, and don't waste time or money on cracked blades. You can argue about aesthetics and pretty activity in the steel from water, that's fine. But an oil quenched blade will do everything a water quenched can do. So yes in my specific case I have learned by application. But I listen to people smarter than me, who have already figured this out decades ago. And I trust the science that was used to create the oil. There's no guess work on my end with my blades, same with anyone else who owns digital equipment and commercial grade oil. I don't know exactly how my digital heat treat oven works. But I knew how to build most of it, I know how to operate it every day, I know the results it gives me. Razor sharp results. Same as a car. You don't need to know exactly how a car works to drive it and maintain it and when I need help I consult people who know more than me, I don't go on massive fluff rants about how cars can run on H20 and gas powered doesn't actually work. Because that's how silly his argument actually is.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 9, 2021 2:49:17 GMT
Same team, guys... I see there is a debate underneath the increasing vitriol, but can we try to shake hands and move forward politely? Not even a debate. One person is simply lying, the other person (me) is correcting it so others can see and not be misinformed. Doesn't matter if he is covering his ears and saying "lalalalala", other people will see his lies being called out and not walk away with crap information.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 9, 2021 2:45:19 GMT
I am not a doctoral candidate, nor am I metallurgical scientist, however, I have had the opportunity to discuss yaki-ire a number of times with different smiths over the years. I think this thread is in the weeds because we have lost sight of the forest for the trees. As for the generalization of blade hardness quenched in oil vs water, YES, there are types of steel that will harden in oil to a similar rockwell of those quenched in water. However, these are steel specifically made with oil quenching in mind. The japanese did not have such luxuries ......they had iron sand which was a poor material to start with. Not to mention that hardness is only one variable, but by no means the only important part of making a durable blade. So the question should really be, can tamahagane be quenched in oil to the same functional degree as water. I believe the jury is decided on this, and it is a resounding NO. I find it unlikely, IMO, any credible research can be found showing a martensitic structure in oil quenched tamahagane that is superior or even equal to water quenched. I am happy to be educated on this if I am wrong, and I mean that seriously. All that being said, if a 5160 type steel was available in feudal japan that could be oil quenched and still produce a relatively durable steel, I can't say there would not be historical examples of it. I believe having a durable blade that retained an edge and didn't break would have been desired regardless of what is was made from. What they had was tamahagane........ That is why I made sure to specify, multiple times, that simple carbon steels, like the 10XX steels, can be oil quenched in specific quenching oils and achieve equal hardness if they were water quenched. Since tamahagane is an obsolete technique that's only done for traditional reasons I see no reason to use anything but water on that as well. But I was just told not to trust the dealers....they are sharks and scammers apparently. New Jersey Steel Baron, one of the most reputable dealers in the business, is a scammer apparently. That's false. It's slander. It's a lie. It's incorrect. People perverting the forums with this junk are why many people don't come around anymore.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 8, 2021 5:01:11 GMT
Bully, I can see making sharpies didn’t give you a doctorate in physical science. Does explain why you think a legion of people with martial arts as their metallurgy CV would destroy me.... With science11 Yes oil quenching makes zero sense. Bad specific heat and bad boiling means too little martensite. You can shriek and claim how tough and smart you are but won’t change laws of nature. I’m a medical researcher and find doing bad things to mice stressful. I found antiques, and later on blades relaxing, and surprise surprise, being able to read and find studies at will and sometimes translate, and being able to pickup gem features translated well to appraising and collecting swords. Not a metallurgist but yeah, physical science says oil quench (“temper” as dealers/collectors say in vernacular) makes no sense. You're frantically editing your comments. You didn't say oil "quenching" you said oil "tempering". You have no idea what you're talking about and you're literally cluttering the forums with false BS.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 8, 2021 4:57:59 GMT
You said a hoard of eminent scientists (YouTube knife makers) would destroy me... With science! Go ahead, coming in here screaming that oil is a strong coolant, that Japan wishes it had park 50 and then screaming when I throw shade shows more a lack of maturity. Chill. Because I don't know how else to put it. You're factually wrong. Haven't called you any names. Although I guess I make sharpies? Not sure what that means. Tens of thousands of knife makers and swordmakers use oil. I also never said they were YouTube knifemakers. They are trained sword makers and scientists. There's a whole group of scientists I could send you to on Facebook. Has over 100k blade makers. Someone there can explain it better than me for sure. Anyway I already linked you a data sheet.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 8, 2021 4:54:01 GMT
Bully, I can see making sharpies didn’t give you a doctorate in physical science. Does explain why you think a legion of people with martial arts as their metallurgy CV would destroy me.... With science11 Yes oil quenching makes zero sense. Bad specific heat and bad boiling means too little martensite. You can shriek and claim how tough and smart you are but won’t change laws of nature. By the way here is a spec sheet for parks 50 oil quenching with 1080 steel. Written by a metallurgical expert. Attachments:
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 8, 2021 4:52:10 GMT
Bully, I can see making sharpies didn’t give you a doctorate in physical science. Does explain why you think a legion of people with martial arts as their metallurgy CV would destroy me.... With science11 Yes oil quenching makes zero sense. Bad specific heat and bad boiling means too little martensite. You can shriek and claim how tough and smart you are but won’t change laws of nature. Well anyways, I never mentioned Walter. You're also not even specifying what type of oil. You do know there are different kinds of oil with different kinds of boiling points, different kinds of viscocities, different kinds of chemical make up. You already slipped and used the wrong term "oil tempering", which isn't a thing, you keep just saying "oil" as if there's only one kind. If you keep up the insults, I'm going to report you.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 8, 2021 4:43:57 GMT
Oil quench, with low specific heat (it can’t cool water) and high boiling (it gets red hot unlike water which can’t go over 100) If your keyboard warrior self has trouble with the science you need only ask and I can tutor. It’s simple. I'm a professional knifemaker. Oil tempering makes zero sense in regards to blade making. Not sure where you came from but you're lying and spreading false information. Oil quenching, functionally, makes a blade with similar performance and hardness as water quenching.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 8, 2021 4:40:21 GMT
I use vernacular, Smart people don’t need to put on airs. Overcompensating nobody with no evidence do. Of course, oil is a poor quencher, low specific heat, high boiling. You see? My chemistry background was useful after all. Im just keep saying it. "Oil temper" makes zero sense. Not sure how you're allowed to hang out here and blatantly lie about stuff, like oil quenching. Its false, wrong information. Factually. Scientifically. You are wrong, sir.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 8, 2021 4:35:18 GMT
My understanding is the Hanwei L6 fiasco was because their smiths were so poorly qualified they could not oil temper. I’m thinking no matter how much high tech gimmicks you have, you can’t shortcut poorly trained smiths. But yeah, it’s a disturbing testament to their lack skill. If they can’t do simple oil, how can they do harder stuff like geometry. And see you're using incorrect terminology like "oil temper". I'll help you out, there's no such thing as oil tempering, that phrase doesn't make a bit of sense. Anyone familiar with blade making would easily catch that. It's a common newbie trend to confuse tempering, hardening, quenching. I see it alllll the time. Lol you're spreading false, incorrect information and people that don't know any better might read your stuff and actually think it's legit info.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 8, 2021 4:25:52 GMT
Well buddy, I gave you some nice sources and imperial Japan certainly didn’t consider the edge retention problems with oil negligible. If you feel so strongly about the supremacy of oil quenched Chinese replica, then you need only post some good evidence instead of a stream of thoughts. Just think of it: people would listen to you and stop listening to me. Your dream is in reach, go gettem tiger! Me though, all those videos of crumbly L6 blades as expensive as splendid war era Gendai, which had to pass tests on not crumpling… Well, makes me want to stay and buy good old fashioned. Wake me up when Oni and others stop crumpling from tatami. I guess oil with a very high specific heat and low boiling point could do a good edge but that’s hardly oil then. Metalurgic properties: a strong nioiguchi and nie produced by fast cooling are the hallmarks of successful creation of martensite. You don’t need to temper a proper Japanese sword, the nie hamon is narrow and surrounded by mild steel utsuri has worked plenty fine at having a crumple resistant edge and springy back to support. Good reference if you want twin.sci-hub.do/5777/416f1a93018a9d342d00b18909c08c33/yaso2011.pdfI could link you to dozens of modern smiths who would destroy your argument. With facts, science, all that fun stuff. The Japanese didn't use oil because they didn't have an oil that was graded for quenching. Modern Parks 50, AAA, all that is scientifically made specifically to quench blades at peak functional efficiency. And obviously the advantage to using oil over water is that you almost never get breakage in oil. Please do some research, talk to some modern smiths, let them educate you. I could even give you data sheets for the hardness of the steel after an oil quench, which again will be mid 60s Rockwell hardness before tempering. Japan used water because they didn't have Parks 50. Modern Japan still uses water because of the cool metallurgical cosmetic effects it gives plus the strict rules to which Nihonto must be made.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 8, 2021 2:26:58 GMT
Whatever you guys do, do not listen to Undead Merchant. He is on here slinging a bunch of BS. While it is true that water can form different aesthetic properties, and in the world of Nihonto a water quenched blade is more desirable and traditional, the differences in performance with oil hardening vs water hardening are negligible. Both produce a great amount of hardness in the blade. After the quench, before tempering is done to soften the blade down, both oil and water can produce a blade that has a mid 60s Rockwell hardness that will then be tempered down to a high 50s to low 60s Rockwell hardness to make it more functional and less brittle. For most simple carbon steels like 1060, 1075, 5160 and 1095 Parks 50 is a super fast, thin oil that will give you maximum hardness in the blade.
If you have a Chinese made katana that claims it was oil quenched and you feel the blade is "too soft" this is not because of of quench medium(assuming it was quenched correctly) it is because they botched the temper, possibly tempering at too hot of a temp, probably not uncommon in mass produced Longquan forges.
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Post by shepherd214 on Jul 28, 2021 5:10:29 GMT
Here's a thought-- If you are seriously willing to wait up to a year for a sword, you should consider putting a little away each week/month into your "sword fund." Then, with that accumulated money, purchase a blade from an American custom smith like Josiah Boomershine or Rick Barrett (if/when the latter is available to take on such a project/commission), etc. or getting an actual (mid-tier) Nihonto. You will be happier in the long run. Personally, I would be annoyed at waiting so long for a relatively decent but ultimately still hit-or-miss Chinese factory replica, which I would still end up having to send away again to be remounted and fitted the way I like. Well my recent wakizashi I got from Huawei was so nice I didn't event think of getting it rewrapped. And judging by pictures of other swords people have recently received, that quality is very consistent. Like way beyond what I've seen for 500 dollars and even better than many 1000 dollar and above. It's actually painful for me to see people immediately send their Huawei off for a rewrap when they did so well on it. Obviously it's still not perfect but it is way beyond acceptable. Mine is still perfect after two years. But I understand people want certain looks, don't like the synthetic ito, etc etc.
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