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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2009 20:16:57 GMT
I go with what Slayer and Kid said, Marc. That post is ... well... amazing. You just brought the whole discussion to a point.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2009 20:25:33 GMT
Marc, I think I already karma'd you once today...but here's another, paltry offering that it is. Well said and I agree with most of what you said. I especially like the bit:
"I think your ATrim would be recognized for what it is real quick.... a sword... in fact , I believe that the histrocity geeks at the Renn Faire would take exception to your ATrim and period swordsmen would not.... "
LOVE IT.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2009 22:06:56 GMT
Good post Marc. I think you put your soul into it
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2009 22:29:46 GMT
Marc, thought was intelligent, thoughtful, insightful, and ... inspired. I am humbled before your wisdom of the blade.
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Post by shadowhowler on May 22, 2009 22:32:42 GMT
Whats that slurpping sound...? ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2009 22:52:07 GMT
And, in the meantime, while the thread is derailed into complementing oblivion over a 17 day old post; this week Odingaard bought a Landgraf, Sheriff, and ATrim I-Beam at insanely low prices... ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2009 23:06:48 GMT
Odingaard I'm happy for you, just too broke to partake of the great deals myself.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2009 23:24:15 GMT
I've been selling off my lower end stuff to get into the higher quality stuff - so I have not actually invested much money out of pocket into swords. I just keep an eye out for good deals and work them out as they come along.
The prices have approached the price point of the new Valiant or Tinker stuff. There are still people out there trying to charge and arm and a leg for a higher dollar Atrim, A&A, or Albion items; but they are also the same ones bumping an ad every three days and not selling their sword. The real deals are taking place in PM boxes and if there are ads, they last about 2-3 hours - so keep an eye out! ;D
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on May 23, 2009 0:01:28 GMT
A famous swordmaker read this thread , and sent me an email about the costs involved for an American maker to make a sword. He outlined the cost for me down to the last cent. I was unclear whether he wanted to post it or not... he mentioned he had lost his log-in here... but I did not get specific permission to post it, so I will not. Lets just say the numbers were ASTOUNDING. I have no idea how a business can survive on minimized profit margins like that. Surely the devaluation of their swords in the second-hand market only serves to hurt sales of new products more... Going by the numbers that were shared with me, there is no wiggle room in the pricing either. It is scary low now. Swords are a passion ... we love these things. Isn't it sad that the premiere maker of these swords we love are earning less of a wage than the men that haul off our refuse, or pump the excrement from our septic tanks? The sad fact is, if we as a community love swords, we have to be prepared to let the sword business be profitable. Without profits the people that make the top of the line swords won't. Imagine a worlds with no ATrims. No Albions. No A&A. Can you imagine it? It should be easy. It wasn't that long ago it was a reality. Hell just visit your local mall's cutlery store now... it should give you a good idea what the sword world would be like without these revolutionary and inspirtional makers. I am all for a good deal... and would not hesitate to snap up a good deal if I had the chance , and the money... but then again , I 'm even happier that I spent more money buying two swords from Gus... and he graciously took payments... and I ended up with two top quality swords, and supported a sword maker who has helped revolutionize the sword world. I hope that we can somehow get through this soft market , with our western makers still in business so that there will be plenty of ATrims and Albions on the second hand market for people to charge an arm and a leg for for many years to come. Hoozah !! for the great deals!!!! Hoozah also for supporting the makers who fuel our passion as well !!! So , Jonathan.... how about some sword porn of your new acquisitions ;D Congratulations on the good deals EDIT: OH.. thanks for all the kind words and karma everyone... hey Sean... is that YOU making that slurping noise? Or is it your little admirer? LOL
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2009 0:11:58 GMT
Well said Marc.
A good example, I recently purchased a motor for my grinder, BRAND NEW. While it could be had from a supply house for 180$, I bought it from the fella who makes the KMG grinders for 269$. WHY!? must you ask? Because I was supporting a self made businessman who makes a quality product, instead of tractor supply. I will pay a little extra depending on the situation if it means supporting a fellow craftsman.
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Post by alvin on May 23, 2009 0:16:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2009 15:21:59 GMT
I wholeheartedly support the sword industry - they have gotten a sizable amount of my income over the years. This also goes for medieval/renaissance clothing manufacturers, armorers, and even period food vendors. These companies and people not only have my utmost respect and support; but they deserve it. I will be the first to agree that in this secular industry, it is not an easy path to success. Over the years, I have many friends in the industry - and nearly everyone of them will tell you that to start a business dealing in or manufacturing historically-based clothing/weaponry will almost always result in failure over long-enough of a timeline.
When I ran an on-line armory, I did so because of my love of the history and lore. For quite a few years, I sustained myself and my family though this love - but words cannot easily express what you have to deal with. Distribution/supply problems, constant upkeep of equipment, rent/lease payments, quality control problems, customer requests/complaints, lost items, responding to time-wasting emails or phone calls from people that don't buy anything, competition, and countless other issues.
I remember back when the LoTR films were in fullswing - everyone and their uncle wanted a set of Gondorian bracers (like the ones Aragorn took from Boromir after he was killed). I had literally hundreds of requests for these. So, I drew up a template, bought a ton of bulk 10oz leather, buckles, and the assorted crafting tools I would need to do them. I used copy paper to transpose my design on paper to the bracer and embossed each one by hand. I calculated my overhead on each set of these at about $45.00 (and that does not include my time - my highest proficiency was about two hours per set from start to finish). I sold them for $75.00 a pair to offer an inexpensive way for people to own these.
After a few months, my bracers just stopped selling. I could not figure out why. After a little research, I discovered that some guy in Texas (a previous customer) had outsourced the bracer design to Mexico and was getting the LoTR bracer stamped out and selling them on eBay and selling them shipped for $47.50 a pair. I was pissed off, so bought a pair of them to see the quality. Just as expected, they were made from cheap 5-7oz leather, used lacing instead of straps/buckles, and were the wrong color. But, they looked good from a distance and were $30.00 less than mine. I was irate and lost money hand over fist, that petty $30.00 was what had been paying the bills and feeding my family for a few months - and when it was taken away, it hurt badly.
This is just one example of such things you must deal with - there are countless other things that happen to effect your business. In the end, it was just too much to deal with and I decided to go back to a 9 to 5 job with benefits and leave the whole medieval/renaissance period business thing to others that had more patience or resources than myself. So, to stay in it, you must both love it and be prepared to deal with even minute changes in the industry which could affect your livelyhood.
The sword industry as a whole is just like this. You give to the world a sword that you have put blood, sweat, and tears into; but there is no telling what is going to happen that can drastically affect your business. Customers are very fickle creatures; one minute they are your best friend with 100% loyalty, and the next week, they are buying the newest flavor of the month from your competitor. You'd try to remain unbiased, but the competition and problems are unending. It's like an endless quest to stay in business - and it is not easy.
At the end of the day - it breaks down to your business planning/management, not your love of the sword that keeps you in business. If you do poorly at these finer aspects of running a business, you will fail - it it does not matter how much you love the sword. This includes having contengencies/capitol for dealing with the unexpected - such as lulls in sales from economic turmoil. This is the cold hard fact of running any business, the fine line between the green and the red. Overhead and profit marigin means everything - and at the end of the day, it does not matter how much you love history or swords. This love will absolutely not, under no circumstances, pay the bills.
Now, I am strictly a customer (though I sell/make things for close friends from time to time). If a business/smith makes a good product at a good price, I'll buy it. If I think they are overpriced, I don't buy it. I support the sword industry - but I am not one to make sympathy buys or buy something from someone because I feel that I must because they are hurting for business, cannot pay the bills, or had a poor business plan. I am like every other customer - I buy what I want when I want it. I'll leave it to the sword smith to create the product that I cannot resist - because that is their job, it is their chosen path. They must compete for my dollar; and to be honest, I do not concern myself with how good or how bad things are for them. I can respect them, but they must also respect that they are in competition for the customer's dollar and they must be at the top of their game to survive in a highly-secular industry.
Everyday, new sword customers come into the market. They have to make a decision on where to put their money. Do they buy the newest, hottest stuff that eveyone else is buying? Do they buy a closeout item from a big seller? Do they buy a wallhanger from the mall? Do they pay a custom smith top-dollar for a unique item? This is the battlefield where sword makers fight. Some will win, others will lose. No one can predict the outcome.
And, this is what makes swords collectible, is it not? 20-30 years from now when you are retired and you break out the collection to show the kids, you can say "Hey, now this is a awesome sword - it was made by Maker X and they went out of business during the Recession - but man, they made a nice sword. You can't get this quality any more!" - Funny enough, I recall conversations with my father and grandfather about this every type of thing, though not about swords - but other things. How something used to be better back in the day, but it's not built so nicely now. This is what makes things collectible!
In the used market, the sword manufacturer must also compete with themselves. As people's interests change or they become financially unable to support their collection - you end up with a second-hand market that could be filled with your own product. If I were a sword vendor - I'd work up some type of plan for these second hand items - such as repolish, sharpen, regrip, or scabbard service to get some kickback from second-hand customers. Everytime I seen one of my swords go to a second-hand collector, I'd might send them an email and welcome them to the family as well, or perhaps even set up a special registration page to make contact with them. After all, if they like my sword, they might buy from me directly next time, right?
As customers, we cannot change the tide. We can't jump in and say - "Golly, Smith X is a nice guy, I feel bad for him, let's all go buy his swords so he does not shut his doors!" - There is a whole plethora of things that must remain in tune with a manufacturer for them to have longevity, and it's not just our dollars - it's the industry as a whole. We can support them, but they must support us and be in tune with what others are doing to compete. As long as they make a good product, I will give them money. At the point to where their quality lacks, wait time is too long, price is too expensive, or customer service sucks; as a customer, I must take my money elsewhere.
Sadly, if they find the sword business unprofitable or they are struggling, then it may not be the right business for them. As a friend, I would advise them to do some serious rethinking. Or perhaps they should downsize, or revamp their business plan. I might want a nice sword, but if they are going to be broke or financially ruined for life - get into another line of work so you can take care of your family for the love of God. I had rather you prosper as an individual than sell me a nice sword!
Things are changing in the sword industry daily. It is an interesting time, that is for certian. I for one look forward to the changes to see what the industry brings us in the future. I wish all of the sword manufacturers out there the best and I will support them where I can if they are in tune with what I want as a collector.
PS: Sword porn incoming. I am working this weekend, but I will get pictures up soon in this thread! ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2009 15:55:44 GMT
And one thing to keep in mind as a complicating factor is that, while we are consumers who have great respect for the high-end makers, many of us on this forum at least also participate as our own craftsman. Just look at the many wonderful customization projects that have been undertaken.
Is it any betrayal of the great makers if I take a budget-priced Windlass or Cold Steel of Hanwei with great blade and crappy hilt construction, or just a hilt construction I don't like, and make something that functions (and perhaps looks) just the way I like it? Or is it something that I actually should take pride in and prefer?
I suppose someone might say that I'm supporting mass-production and lowball labor, since these blades I bare and adjust are produced en masse and, moneywise, on the cheap. But even then, Sam might buy a grinder from a better quality dealer to support that operation, but are you telling me that the grinder itself was a craftsman custom job? And if it were, the grinding wheel? The motor? The forge equipment? The steel stock itself?
Even those who want to be supported as a craftsman and rebel against the faceless spectre of mass production and cut-rate pricing makes a lot of choices that benefit from just such ways, multiple times, in each and every sword they make.
Right now I'm trying to rehilt a Hanwei Dark Sentinel swiss-saber style, and though it won't look like an Albion Knecht or custom piece from Odinblades, from a lot of experience I have a confident hypothesis I can make it perform every bit as well. Even when it comes to the look, it'll really be "mine," and the fact that I can do this at maybe at little as 10% of an Albion or custom price I something I have a hard time feeling any shame for--even if it's part of an overall trend that ends up making high-end and custom makers feel pressure in a tight economy.
I don't want them to. I don't even necessarily want them to lower prices, nor, all things being equal, have to live hand-to-mouth. (At any given time I seem to try to contribute by keeping one each of an Albion, an Atrim and an A&A.) But it's their free choice, as a labor of love, whether to continue.
Just as it's my choice of how to pursue my own labor of love, even if my buying choices cause a conflict there. But its my labors of love I won't give up or apologize for.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 2:21:26 GMT
See, you seem to be the only one with a problem/bone to pick with albions pricing, the other thousands of customers happily laying out the dough seem to have no problem.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 3:31:01 GMT
See, you seem to be the only one with a problem/bone to pick with albions pricing, the other thousands of customers happily laying out the dough seem to have no problem. Let me correct this for you. I am NOT the only one. A poll I ran back in November of last year (before the Recession was full on) on MyArmoury.com detailed that 34% of people (42 out of 123) felt that Albions were overpriced. I ran this before I owned my first Albion out of curiosity to see what people thought before making a purchase. Even though the cost of steel had dropped, Albion had increased their prices 37% in two years - this naturally made me wonder about what was going on. This fact was of note to me as a customer. However, all of this is a moot point. I am but one customer with an opinion that may or may not be respected. I spend about $10,000 a year on antique and modern weapons and armor, but I leave it to the companies to compete for my money. I will point out that don't have a problem paying full price for ATrim, A&A, Windlass, Valiant, Del Tin, or Paul Chen - and have done so countless times. I even buy swords occasionally from SBG to help support the site, so I do more than my share to support the sword industry/forums. In light of this, I am obtaining my Albions or other higher dollar items at the price I wish to pay. If they lower prices, I might buy something directly from them. If not, I will continue to purchase the swords/armor that I want on the second-hand market while the market is good. I don't have a problem with paying the price I feel a product is worth; that is my right as a customer.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 5:13:05 GMT
I am a bit cautious about buying Albion because I do believe they have reached what is cult status. Many people just buy them for their name alone and this has pushed their price well beyond what I would consider reasonable. Not too different from the expensive car cult. It has become a status symbol in the WMA community.
I know people who are out of work and own over $10,000 in Albions. I suspect that the secondary market will flood with Albions in Spring 2010 when unemployment benefits start running out.
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Post by shadowhowler on May 24, 2009 5:19:03 GMT
See, you seem to be the only one with a problem/bone to pick with albions pricing, the other thousands of customers happily laying out the dough seem to have no problem. He's certainly not the only one... I have a problem with it too... thats why my money goes to Atrims, or to customs like Fable Blades or swords from BKS. I might pick up an Albion if they were less expensive... or if I find one that I like at a good price in the used market... but as it stands, I feel I get a better deal for my money with Atrims or other customs... I can get two really good Atrim swords for the price of a lot of the single Albions.
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Post by enkidu on May 24, 2009 5:23:45 GMT
I totally agree with Tsafa and Shadow. They are very well made, but for almost the price of a custom made one, i think that people are buying the brand and that Albion knows it.
So no Sam, he's not alone.
Besides... its hard to admit that you can be disapointed of your 1000+ $ ''investment'' right ? So they always get good comments... but on the other hand Albions are one of the most common weapons found in the second-hand market... there must be a reason for that.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 5:44:00 GMT
I agree on the Albion comments--kind of.
I do think that Albion has in the past few years attended to some small but absolutely crucial details, and that in turn has put pressure on other makers to step up their game--Windlass to peen many more pommels, for example.
Still, it's been more a situation of the lower end makers dropping the ball than Albion being unbeatable at the game.
Why oh why oh why doesn't Windlass wedge fit their guards and sandwich-glue their handles, for instance? It would NOT cause any appreciable price difference. And if they did, many of their sub-300 models WOULD be suddenly comparable in performance.
There are other examples when it comes to Cold Steel, Hanwei, etc. that for little or no cost increase they could achieve close to the same performance. Though Albion aesthetically and as actual extant historical reproductions would be superior, only there could they try to justify their cost.
Meanwhile, when it comes to models that don't suffer the same issues (CS's Shamshir, for example, or MRL's old Horsegead Falcata, where handles are slabbed and riveted) sub-300s are already often functionally awesome. It seems many katanas and the like are remarkably high-quality at the low price end for the same reason, as if it's only the nuances of Euro style hilting that had to be rediscovered--not because they were prohibitively difficult or expensive though.
Kudos to Albion for leading the way, but they really need to realize that if the larger, lower-end production makers simply stop being STUPID, Albion WILL have to consider dropping their prices to stay competitive.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 6:05:53 GMT
The albions I've handled are not the be all and end all of swords as some people like to make out. In fact quite frankly the Albions I have handled disappointed me. My other issue is that if I find a good product made by a lesser known company or if I find a company or person within Australia even thought it costs more I am inclined to support them, like Bren who allowed me to purchase my first real weapon, everything up until then that I had owned had been wood and stuff. The reason I am more inclined to supporting Australian sword makers is because there are so very few of them and as proven by manning Australian smiths are just as good as anywhere else in the world.
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