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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2009 23:22:09 GMT
Here's a little something I picked up in the classifieds...my price was $550 with the scabbard included. I am so satisfied with this purchase, I am considering selling everything else I own sword-wise to cash in on these type of deals, because I am seeing them become more and more frequent. In this volitile economy, I have to ask, are Albions approaching the sub-$300 mark? Not just Albions, but everything else that could be considered higher dollar. Here is my logic. I have been watching the used market like most others here for the last year or so. To date, I have seen several Albions being sold at what I would consider to be rock bottom prices. In November, I seen a Talhoffer sell for $400. Just the other day in another forum, someone lucked up on an Albion two-hander for $300. I seen another Mercenary go for $400 about three weeks ago. I have seen A&A, Angus Trim, Lutel, even Patrick Barta stuff sell for prices that would have been unheard of a year or two ago. Hell, I just bought a CF/AT Redeemer for $600 as well, which makes me giddy as a schoolgirl. Sure, it depends on your economic state and what you ultimately want; but these deals are making more expensive swords accessible to a wider range of sword buyers. If you can spend $300-$400 and get a $1000 blade, it is a good thing as far as I am concerned. In my case, I would never pay the list price for an Albion then wait 6-9 months for it. But, the whole story changes when the prices on the used market drop near the SBG price point. I personally hate that the economy sucks, but this is good from the bad. By the end of the recession, I hope to have some nice pieces that I otherwise could have never afforded. So, what do you guys think? Anyone else trying to cash in on these types of deals?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2009 23:48:56 GMT
I'm kind of waiting out to see how long Albion Swords Ltd. can hold their breath before they start dropping their prices near $300-$400 levels in the primary market. Can't happen? When Citigroup and GM are trading at under $5 a share, anything can happen.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2009 23:52:14 GMT
Honestly I wish Albions were cheaper new, I mean it's not like they're hand forged; they cut them out of blanks so shouldn't that decrease the price a little? I suppose the fact that they aren't made in china is what makes them so spendy.
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Post by sparky on Apr 28, 2009 23:52:34 GMT
Yeah. I wish Milk is expensive But congrats to you!!!! Got five kids and go though 7 gallons a week ;D
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 29, 2009 0:05:59 GMT
Hmm, if things got that hard for them it's more likely that they'll be closing there doors rather than drop their prices. Living doesn't just get cheaper for them and their employees. Not something I'd be wishing for, they are a pillar of the industry.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 0:16:35 GMT
I always felt Albions were WAY overpriced for a sword made by stock removal. I got involved in a heated argument on another board over it last year. I saw the How Its Made video and hit the fan on how they could cost so much. The savings made in just not paying man-hours for smiths for forging blades should make them cost significantly less. I don't get it to be honest.
Now, holding this Mercenary, I will concur that it is finished to some of the highest quality I have ever seen, even moreso than A&A. It's just a sexy and functional sword. Even my wife, who is totally not into swords was like...Wow...that is really nice. Is it worth the full $800? I don't think so. If I knew nothing about Albion, I'd guess that this was a $400-$500 sword tops.
I am happy with my purchase, and will be lurking for more deals such as this in the future. Perhaps there will be a shift in the thinking of the higher dollar sword manufacturers to adjust to be more on par to draw buyers and not push them away due to excessively high prices.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 0:50:56 GMT
I always felt Albions were WAY overpriced for a sword made by stock removal. I got involved in a heated argument on another board over it last year. I saw the How Its Made video and hit the fan on how they could cost so much. The savings made in just not paying man-hours for smiths for forging blades should make them cost significantly less. I don't get it to be honest. Now, holding this Mercenary, I will concur that it is finished to some of the highest quality I have ever seen, even moreso than A&A. It's just a sexy and functional sword. Even my wife, who is totally not into swords was like...Wow...that is really nice. Is it worth the full $800? I don't think so. If I knew nothing about Albion, I'd guess that this was a $400-$500 sword tops. I am happy with my purchase, and will be lurking for more deals such as this in the future. Perhaps there will be a shift in the thinking of the higher dollar sword manufacturers to adjust to be more on par to draw buyers and not push them away due to excessively high prices. I agree, after I saw that I seriously questioned why they were so expensive. I don't wish they would drop their prices by a huge amount, from my understanding they're still the most well balanced swords on the market and that makes them worth more than your average windlass but, THAT much more? I don't know. And what about the wait times, why are they so long?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 1:15:36 GMT
I'm kind of waiting out to see how long Albion Swords Ltd. can hold their breath before they start dropping their prices near $300-$400 levels in the primary market. Can't happen? When Citigroup and GM are trading at under $5 a share, anything can happen. The "anything" that can happen is likely to be bankruptcy for Albion. All these price drops are in the secondary/used market. OK, say Albion drops prices by 50%. Their orders have to more than double for them make for the loss in profit. Their supply costs aren't going to drop. Labor costs wouldn't drop, they might actually increase with the additional demand for products and the need to get swords out quickly. Quality would likely suffer. OTOH they have the Squire Line swords in the $500 range. They may have to shift their product towards that end of the spectrum. BTW in my opinion Albion's swords are overpriced, somewhere around 15-20%. $700 for a (non-custom) gladius? No thanks. I am going to avoid the whole stock removal thing. Maybe Tinker can throw in his $.02
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 1:23:34 GMT
I'm no expert but I doubt Albion has all that much profit to spare. If I recall correctly they just had to raise their prices last summer. In all seriousness, who goes into the sword business to make a big profit? Having done some blade making myself, the actual hot forging of a blade is only one of many tedious steps. Honestly what is the most annoying is not the forging but the rest of it. All the hand sanding is a pane. The detailed work on the juncture between the guard and blade sounds minimal but takes a lot of time. (my work never looked like an Albion, by the way) I believe these are all things that Albion still does by hand as i don't think there's any other way. It wasn't the focus of that video because its' quite frankly, boring. Labor isn't cheap, unless of course your factory is in china. My forging background was with knives. "Art knives" as they're sometimes called can cost much more than an Albion and it's all about the finish work, not the forging. They are collectors pieces. Much of our market is based around functionality and vague historical accuracy. If that's what you want than buy an Atrim or a squire line. This is really all about diminishing return and Albions are all about the details. If I had that kind of money I'd buy one. Someday I would like to get one of their squire line swords at least. I don't mean to offend anyone, that's just my two since. A lot longer than it was supposed to be and probable not that coherent but I hope it makes a little sense.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 1:37:50 GMT
***Albions are CNCed from bar stock, not really handmade. Hand-finished, but not hand-forged.***
But, if they dropped their prices, they would sell more swords - especially with their branding. I mean, they make a wicked product and top the production sword market, but with the newer offerings from Tink and Trim/Valiant - they should really re-evaluate their standing and product line.
What if they did not offer like 100 different models of sword at once and only ran like 10-20 models per year? That would have to cut down on overhead. I know that the R&D, CNC machinery, trained employees, and other factors play into it; but one has to consider, do they need to be a really big company or a modest-sized company (like ATrim) to manufacture a consistant quality product and offer it at a little less cost to the customer.
Wake up! We are in a freaking recession that is on the verge of becoming a depression here. It's not a good time to be actually raising prices (ie - the hike back in the Fall). If your average Joe will spend up to $400 on a quality blade - is it better to tell him 'Piss Off' or modify your product line and business practices a little to get his money. Especially when you look at the new stuff coming out this year that has sword buyers chomping at the bit. Someone at Albion has to be looking at these forums and thinking "Geez, this newer stuff from Tinker/Valiant sure seems like a pretty good value...maybe we should do something to compete more in the lower dollar market..."
I don't know what their overhead is, but they need to revamp their business plan and think of something before a bankruptcy does throw the smack down on them. It would be a tragedy to see them go under because they could/would not do something to streamline their operation, think/spend smarter, and lower their prices just a little.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 1:41:34 GMT
I have been wanting an Albion Hospitaller or Ritter for a long long time and unless I will the lottery I will still just be dreaming about them, but who knows.
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Post by hotspur on Apr 29, 2009 1:55:19 GMT
As the market remains soft, I'll keep going with the antique market
The Albion Squire line have never been teriibly much than Del Tin prices. I was quite impressed with a friends Squire viking. I doubt anyone will ever see anything but second hand offerrings below Squire Line prices.
Howy and Amy are no dummies. It was really just them and Jason Dingledine when they were on the east coast. I'd love to see an archive of those old pages but a lot of it has maintained, along with current endeavour. Eric McHugh had more recently moved on home to INdiana (iirc) he was/is a preacher by trade. He nad RAndal Graham were early associates along with Jason. I can't I say I know the crew at all aside from CS Michael.
Before the Wisconsin days, there was a slightly different trade in business. My first ATrim as sold through them, several of his blades were. Al Massey did the blades for Howy's wonderful anthromorphic hilt. More influence than thought may be traced back through the decade past. The Phantom hilt by Samson, amazing and I should have. Peter on board? Gosh, even that story is an old one. Don't forget the Baltimore Knife shop, ever perservering in their works and listing. Then there were some nice baskets and a dandy highlander that rode through on the carpet of MacAllens swords from England.
A decent business model that has kept going. Production will likely kepp going in the trades hand to hand, somewhat in apprenticeship.
Daggers and axes at the sub $300 mark mebbe but even the spear jaunt kind of fizzled. What else,. well, subcontracting continues and I believe they bought the building, so heat and light are the only real concerns.
The only way the sub $300 market makes business sense it to outsource design. Even then, prices are going to go up. No one expects to market Mercedes Benz cars with that trim but the Chrysler PT Cruiser did a great job in its day. It is Mercedes pretty much through and through.
Anyway, enjoy others msifortune and losses while you can. While there has been some steady resetting going on, the long term prospects for many are anything but dim.
Cheers
Hotspur; dandy A&A BP out there this week, with a scabbard. Oh, never mind, I bought mine new for less than that some years ago
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Post by YlliwCir on Apr 29, 2009 2:48:13 GMT
I'll say right off I think Abions are overpriced, in my mostly nonbusiness informed opinion. However, they do have an excellent product (judging from the one I've got and what I've seen of others) and a great reputation. Plus a good guarantee. I wouldn't count them out anytime soon. Like I said, I don't know much about business, but the wait time for these swords suggests a couple of scenarios to me. Either the demand for their product comes faster than they can make them, in which case the idea that things are worth what people will pay for them comes into play, or it takes a long time to make the sword which would make it worth more than I at first thought. Either way, I'm happy with my Poitiers and when I'm able I plan on picking up a few more, new or used.
But that's just me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 2:53:15 GMT
Albion needs to do nothing. They are the best makers of production Euro swords, and there will always be people who want the best. The fact that their waiting period is often 3-4 four months should tell you a few things like. 1. They arn't suffering for orders. 2. Just because the initial blank is cut from CNC doesn't mean the rest of the manufactureing isn't labor intensive. There is also the sense of pride that its made here with materials from the US and not made in China. As far as them going for cheap now. Well its like BMW's there will always be people who might pick one up used if they get a good deal on one, but there will only be used ones for sale as long as there are plenty of people buying them new.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 2:57:21 GMT
+1 to RicWilly for having the same observations on the waiting periods and beating my to the quick draw with the keyboard.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 3:08:55 GMT
Just thoughts: The time not spent of forging is instead spent on detailing. Because normalizing and annealing before the heat treatment "reset" the steel, the forging vs. stock removal debate is next to moot. They save time and money, which probably means that you're getting something that would be at least a few hundred dollars more if it were forged.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 4:02:50 GMT
I didn't mean to say they were entirely handmade. Simply as others have pointed out: Just because they don't forge their blades doesn't mean there isn't a large amount of handwork involved. The fit and finish is really what your paying for and that requires artisans and lots of time. Time is probably the most expensive element. What I was trying to stress in my first post was that, in the creation of a sword, the actual time spent forging is rather minimal. I new an ABS master smith who I saw forge a perfect bowie in something like 5 minutes. My point was simply that you are still paying for the rest of the process. And Albion puts a great deal of effort into the rest of the process probably more than others do. That being said, I would love to see them lower their prices just a bit. I believe what is more likely however is that they may add to their already existing squire line. I would love to this happen as it's closer to my budget anyway. In fact the squire line enforces what I'm trying to say. The real difference between the two lines is detail, fit, and finish. Otherwise they are essentially the same thing. My understanding is that the blades are identical coming off the milling machine. They just receive less attention in regards to polish, sharpening, and other details like the fancy leather grip. You pay several hundred dollars more for a small difference in the product itself. It's simply diminishing return. In the mean time I'll continue to hope I win the lottery, though I have yet to buy a ticket. Does anyone else have this dilemma?
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Post by hotspur on Apr 29, 2009 5:10:34 GMT
As far as I know, Albion still does their heat treating in house. Any of these makers run through their heat treat "centers" twice. Tinker is someone that does things a bit different but don't think either Gus or Albion are sitting at machines watching the blades just spit out ready to HT and finish polish. That is simply not what goes on. Anybody forging or doing stock removal is still finish grinding and/or polishing and doing the cutlery and the fittings and the issues. The production numbers that Albion sell means a team effort with salaries and all that good stuff. Be it any of the offerings of lines from Albion, it is not happenstance or mistaken in thought. There have been some holdbacks on increases and even some sales but the price line as indicated will waver but little. It is simply the cost of doing business. My A&A with scabbard was less than $500 new. I don't recall the exact figure right now but you are looking at more like $750 with a plain leather scabbard. I wouldn't even figure on a great number of bargains such as the op related at the start of the thread. Sure, there are bargains out there and I even looked at the sword he bought at the time it was posted. Cash is king right now and some may feel it outweighs many other possibilities. In turnover, the same folk are going to be lucky to break even with what they sell. There is nothing wrong with it, a lot of my assortment is used, both new reproducitons and tasty (to me) relics still well below the market prices of A crispy Albion. A commission, mebbe down the line but not right now. Cheers Hotspur; nothing but more coal left for me this year anywayWhat is it they say about lemons and lemonade? I be not able to spelbt well
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2009 11:19:07 GMT
Have handle a few Albions and coveted the Landgraf forever, but will never be able to budget one in. Sure, I could save for a couple years, but when there are other makers out there that are making top quailty products at a lower cost to consumers, then that's the route I'll follow.
example : Armour Class.. IMO of equal handling quality of any of the Albions I've picked up and highly over looked by folks here in the USA. Reason I say this is that everyone ..and I do mean EVERYONE that has ever picked up my A-C mortuary hilt and given it a swing ...the first words out of their mouth has been...and I quote..."Wow"..... Alot of seasoned antique collectors and WMA practitioners / instructors have seen and handled the A-C mort..so this response is of from folks that's seen their share of stuff.
Again it really come down to personal choice in to how much one feels something is worth to them.
Like Glen, I'll keep a keen interest in my antiques and be content with my Armour Class, Windlass, Hanwei and Del-Tin's......
cheers,
Bill
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2009 13:24:03 GMT
Billiam good info on Armour class I really like there Claymore wish there site was a bit better do you own one of there swords if so what are there blades like are the pommels penned any info would be great thanks
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