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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 6:52:09 GMT
Oh, look! A philosophy discussion! How do these usually end...?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 7:12:26 GMT
A point. Would not a mat free standing on that nice level ground cut clean be a better demonstration of the user´s skill and the quality of the sword? Even a cheap 60 dollar musashi will cut a single mat with a small dowel in it with ease. All that video showed off was that the cole´s katana can do something a 60 dollar katana can do. I don´t fault cole in any of this mind you...but really, it makes me go whats the point?!?
I think I can skip my usually outrage over how dangerous this is as that point is being covered rather well by others without my rather aggressive tone in safety matters.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Apr 19, 2009 8:42:56 GMT
all kinda moot now the video has been taken down.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 11:23:44 GMT
I saved it because I knew he would, Greg and his friends always retreat when the going gets rough. Whenever he does something wrong he tries to hide his mistakes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 11:29:41 GMT
The way I see it, crying horror at videos like this is on the same level as claiming the circus to be bad for your health. Fancy stunts are practiced (typically) and executed by skilled persons, and I have just enough faith in the guy cutting that I'd be okay with holding the tatami, too, if a proper stand was not present. I don't even know the guy, but it's pretty hard to miss something like that...hell, I could do it. Hold still... Of course, I fully understand the concern that anybody seeing this might think "wow, cool, I want to do that!" and grab some poor friend and proceed to remove their arms...but going back to the circus analogy, who here hasn't tried walking on a tight rope or juggling...anything? Ever tried the whole fire breathing thing? I haven't, but know people who have been successful. In short, I have no problem with this video, since, as has been said already, the parties involved clearly know what they're getting into and are executing the act with as much care as they can. Though...I'm really not sure why they didn't just put the tatami on a stand...maybe they figured the non-fixed base of a person's grip would be more challenging...cole? You need history on Greg (the korean in the video) before you go saying, all is well. Greg videos himself breaking california law, having small kids on boats out on the ocean without a lifejacket doing kicks and crap like in Karate kid. Greg constantly does stupid stunts to "show off." I recall a video he made where he runs and jumps from one roof to another. And what's really stupid is that he teaches kids this stuff, not just kids watching his videos but he ACTUALLY TEACHES THIS CRAP. Greg has taken no JSA, no KSA, no WSA, nothing to do with a sword, he knows maybe taekwando or something but nothing else. He swung the sword like a lumberjack, with the amount of jerk you could see on that mat you KNOW the edge alignment was terrible. I think we all know what poor edge alignment can do right?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 13:06:13 GMT
The thing that I found baffling on this video, or at least in it's many, many comments that accumulated in a very short time, is that the only persons who commented positively and ranked the video highly was the groupies if Mr Park. It was obvious they could not view the video objectively and see that their 'master' clearly put people in danger with this stunt.
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Post by wiwingti on Apr 19, 2009 13:14:21 GMT
The thing that I found baffling on this video, or at least in it's many, many comments that accumulated in a very short time, is that the only persons who commented positively and ranked the video highly was the groupies if Mr Park. It was obvious they could not view the video objectively and see that their 'master' clearly put people in danger with this stunt. plus one for you man.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 19, 2009 16:42:19 GMT
The way I see it, crying horror at videos like this is on the same level as claiming the circus to be bad for your health. Fancy stunts are practiced (typically) and executed by skilled persons, and I have just enough faith in the guy cutting that I'd be okay with holding the tatami, too, if a proper stand was not present. I don't even know the guy, but it's pretty hard to miss something like that...hell, I could do it. Hold still... Of course, I fully understand the concern that anybody seeing this might think "wow, cool, I want to do that!" and grab some poor friend and proceed to remove their arms...but going back to the circus analogy, who here hasn't tried walking on a tight rope or juggling...anything? Ever tried the whole fire breathing thing? I haven't, but know people who have been successful. In short, I have no problem with this video, since, as has been said already, the parties involved clearly know what they're getting into and are executing the act with as much care as they can. Though...I'm really not sure why they didn't just put the tatami on a stand...maybe they figured the non-fixed base of a person's grip would be more challenging...cole? You need history on Greg (the korean in the video) before you go saying, all is well. Greg videos himself breaking california law, having small kids on boats out on the ocean without a lifejacket doing kicks and crap like in Karate kid. Greg constantly does stupid stunts to "show off." I recall a video he made where he runs and jumps from one roof to another. And what's really stupid is that he teaches kids this stuff, not just kids watching his videos but he ACTUALLY TEACHES THIS CRAP. Greg has taken no JSA, no KSA, no WSA, nothing to do with a sword, he knows maybe taekwando or something but nothing else. He swung the sword like a lumberjack, with the amount of jerk you could see on that mat you KNOW the edge alignment was terrible. I think we all know what poor edge alignment can do right? I couldn't find any info on the guy so I figured I'd probe here for some. Now that you've been so kind as to (finally) explain yourself, I stand corrected. I don't pass judgement on things I don't know about and can't learn about, and it irritates me when people make claims without following up with evidence. That's all. Of course, re: his teachings, eh, if he can do it that's fine; if the parents of the children approve of him teaching these things, that's their gig, not mine. I've been out in water without a lifejacket before. Maybe I'm a danger to society, too!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2009 17:06:22 GMT
Of course, re: his teachings, eh, if he can do it that's fine; if the parents of the children approve of him teaching these things, that's their gig, not mine. I don´t really agree with this. While the whole live and let live works when EVERYONE is willing to accept responsibility of their actions, we just don´t live in that world. What he does reflects badly on the martial arts community. It doesn´t just hurt himself and those willing to follow him. It hurts because a mother will see his videos and not allow her child to take martial art at a fine upstanding safe martial arts school. It hurts because when one of them gets hurt, the media is all over it. It hurts because Mr. Park will never chime up to say it was my fault...EVER. So have I. I´m a VERY strong swimmer and constantly go swimming in the ocean without a lifejacket. It´s unsafe to be sure... but that´s not the point. The point is he is saying look at me and do this cool thing. You and me are just out there to do our own thing and be left alone.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Apr 19, 2009 17:33:54 GMT
Cold Napalm, you've finally crossed the line! I have threatened to do this before, but now I must. here I am with my new (and temporary) name for all to see.
I am angry and astonished over the lack of forsight and responsibility of this leader and teacher. oh yeah, and I agree with you
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 19, 2009 17:44:47 GMT
Of course, re: his teachings, eh, if he can do it that's fine; if the parents of the children approve of him teaching these things, that's their gig, not mine. I don´t really agree with this. While the whole live and let live works when EVERYONE is willing to accept responsibility of their actions, we just don´t live in that world. What he does reflects badly on the martial arts community. It doesn´t just hurt himself and those willing to follow him. It hurts because a mother will see his videos and not allow her child to take martial art at a fine upstanding safe martial arts school. It hurts because when one of them gets hurt, the media is all over it. It hurts because Mr. Park will never chime up to say it was my fault...EVER. I can't say it's put a noticeable damper on anything I'm aware of... Besides, for every loon there are dozens of legits. I'll not get into the matter of "his teachings make parents not want their children to study" versus "he is teaching children [whose parents must approve else they'd not be there, no?]" so the thread can move on to its grave already... I'm not getting a "look at me and do this cool thing" from this video, at least, and I haven't nor will I bother to watch his other videos, but for the present my opinion remains that there is no harm done in the originally posted video. Though I'd have liked it if they'd added a "don't try this at home" clause...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 22:28:52 GMT
Cold Napalm, you've finally crossed the line! I have threatened to do this before, but now I must. here I am with my new (and temporary) name for all to see. I am angry and astonished over the lack of forsight and responsibility of this leader and teacher. oh yeah, and I agree with you HA Love the name change and a +1 in advance of you making your 2k post . I think the whole video was nothing more then a disgusting advertisement with way too much that could have gone wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2009 21:02:25 GMT
I don´t really agree with this. While the whole live and let live works when EVERYONE is willing to accept responsibility of their actions, we just don´t live in that world. What he does reflects badly on the martial arts community. It doesn´t just hurt himself and those willing to follow him. It hurts because a mother will see his videos and not allow her child to take martial art at a fine upstanding safe martial arts school. It hurts because when one of them gets hurt, the media is all over it. It hurts because Mr. Park will never chime up to say it was my fault...EVER. I can't say it's put a noticeable damper on anything I'm aware of... Besides, for every loon there are dozens of legits. I'll not get into the matter of "his teachings make parents not want their children to study" versus "he is teaching children [whose parents must approve else they'd not be there, no?]" so the thread can move on to its grave already... Actually no it isn´t. A bad review of a sword is weighted WAY more then a good one. Somebody who says oh that restaurant is horrible will drive away more customers then somebody who says your food is terrific will bring in. It is statically proven that we heed warnings more then we listen to positive advice. And even if there is a dozen legits to cover Mr. Parks, it still does not negate the damage he is doing. Even if the overall community is doing positive growth, the fact that his action is slowing that growth means he is doing harm. While the look at me ¨vibe¨ isn´t that noticeable because of the overtly advertising nature of the video, but it is there. There was absolutely NO need to have a person hold the mat other then to go oh look at the danger and to draw attention to himself. Greg is shown in the lights as a sensei...a teacher. Somebody that teaches and to be followed. And this isn´t even getting into the history of his other videos.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Apr 21, 2009 22:07:08 GMT
I think I have to keep this name a little longer, I very much agree with CN's statement above. so umm yeah, read the name <---
but particularly the second to last sentance is where I have serious problem with this vid. the man is a teacher and leader he should set the example of what to do not what NOT to do.
EDIT: oh, hey look 2000th post! woot! I didn't even notice until after I posted. ;D
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 21, 2009 22:55:30 GMT
And yet, somehow, this person continues to thrive on this business. Clearly there are many who do not agree with you. As for the whole "oh look how dangerous" bit...nonsense. It's not so uncommon that one person hold something while another cut it. Heck, I don't know if you've been in any martial art before (I'm certain you have, though) but I've seen countless demos (and have done the same myself countless times, mind) where one person would hold a board-or-what-have-you while another performed one or another technique to break said board. It's the same idea. Thus, I see this as normal. Now, if he'd been holding it in his mouth or balancing it atop his head while this fellow cut blindfolded I'd be tempted to shout in alarm but since I can clearly see that, despite the method being questionable to some, all manner of caution was, in fact, taken here. Hell, for all we know, there was a whole paramedic crew waiting just off camera in case anything did go wrong, and nobody ever mentioned whether there were any waivers signed so we'll pretend they were. (sure, probably not, but prove it.) I'm still of the opinion that if the man's teachings and public behaviors are so deplorable...then he wouldn't still be teaching. Surely any responsible parent (this generation's token oxymoron, granted), upon seeing this man's videos (which I have yet to bother looking up, myself, as it does not concern me) IF they were so bad, would pull their child from his lessons and advise others to do the same. The fact that he continues to teach, if as you claim he is, suggests to me that he is obviously not so bad as perhaps some of his videos may portray. Thus, I still say, a fun video. Don't try it at home, though. Tom: grats on 2k. Took you long enough. Shame you got there by piggybacking. Anyway, I'm out of here.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Apr 21, 2009 23:14:44 GMT
Breaking demos is one thing, though I disagree with them as well, but taking a swing at anyone with a 3 foot "razor" is grossly irresponsible....
Yes, I 've seen paired kata on video done by Japanese masters of ko-ryu using shinken... but these guys excercise a level of skill and control not seen in this video, further , they are not commiting to cuts, only making partially powered , slowed down movements...
We also saw a video quite recently on this very forum where a shinken slipped out of a Japanese gentleman's grip , and flew some distance striking another gentleman. What is that had happened here? Or there was blade failure? Or mekugi failure? Or any NUMBER of occurences...
Tom said it best on you-tube when stated that Greg was failing to plan for entropy.
Further , because one gains some degree of popularity with something , does not mean their teachings are not dangerous or deplorable... throughout civilization obscene doctrine and dogma has thrived by preying on certain human falibilties... make something flashy enough or inane enough to appeal to teh lowest common denominator , and you've got a hit... jsut look at the billboard top-40 from about 1985 on, and I rest my case...
I could go on and on about death cults and flat earth societies, racist groups and ethnic cleansing, but I won't... i think the point is pretty clear without straying into those murky waters....
The fact is (OK maybe just MY opinion is ) that guys like this do irrepitable damage to those that seek to teach and enlighten through true martial traditions... and its stunts like this , by guys like this, that go wrong eventually and lead to legislation....
I'm VERY close to locking this thread down, as I think it has offered all it has to offer, but to avoid the appearence of having the last word, I will lleave it open for 24 more hours , unless it gets out of hand...
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Post by YlliwCir on Apr 21, 2009 23:39:19 GMT
I've gone swimming in the ocean lots of times without a lifejacket, come to think of it I don't think I've ever had one on. ;D On the other hand I almost drowned the first time I swam in the pacific. Then again, might have been the alcohol.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 1:02:26 GMT
I've gone swimming in the ocean lots of times without a lifejacket, come to think of it I don't think I've ever had one on. ;D On the other hand I almost drowned the first time I swam in the pacific. Then again, might have been the alcohol. You have shocked us all into numbness, RicWilly. Nothing more you ever do or say will have any effect at all! ;D
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 22, 2009 1:11:20 GMT
Well, Marc, I do believe it to be worth noting that I could post a counter-point based on your very same examples and line of thought, especially with regard to your comment on "obscene doctrine" etc., but feel it would be lost in the ether and otherwise not suitable for this forum. I suppose, though, that you might also be suggesting that the gentleman whose hand slipped while performing a demo is also a great danger to the world of martial arts. After all, some poor soul might see that video and shriek in horror at how dangerous it is, and how careless that crazy man is! Likewise I'm willing to bet the masters you reference are responsible for more injuries, even fatalities, by virtue of their kata (primarily due to those who would imitate them). How irresponsible of them to engage in such practices! Don't they know they might make a mistake and severely injure themself or another? Master or not, they are no less human. People who have been driving cars for decades still run them into other cars and other things. Just because you're at some "master level" doesn't exempt you from the "semprini happens" clause. Perhaps we should extend our Sword Safety Crusade to these people and tell them what a great disservice they are doing to us all with these dangerous and irresponsible displays, and demand they cease immediately. Coming from another viewpoint now... I have never once taken any formal training in any sword art, however I have only once ever dropped a sword, and only a dozen times hit anything I didn't intend to hit...and all this, mind, at the very beginning of it all. I would say that, despite my lack of training, I could very easily (and safely) cut a roll of tatami as another person holds it. I wouldn't be doing it to show off, though...probably just because somebody told me I couldn't. Of course, I have no intention of doing so. Also worth noting, if we go back to my earlier circus analogy, I'm sure we've all seen knife throwers, and those fellows who cut small items held in the mouth of random "volunteers" with any assortment of deadly weapons; hell, even my mother's fiance, on their cruise last summer, was pulled up on stage to hold a something-or-other (I forget exactly what it was but suffice to say it was not large) betwixt his teeth as a fellow who, while juggling swords, took one of these and cut it, while juggling. This man clearly should be behind bars. Or accepted as enjoyable entertainment... My point being...nothing happened, did it? Any number of things could have happened, sure. By the same theory, I could walk out onto my front porch right now and be struck fatally by a stray bullet, or a random bolt of lightning...or even stung to death by a swarm of bees. What am I getting at? semprini happens. These guys seemed plenty prepared for that to me. I have no problem with this video. People will have different opinions and I seem to be the only one capable of wrapping my head around this idea so before this thread gets any worse, let's just lock it already. It's had its time, and served whatever purpose it was intended to serve, which from the direction it immediately headed upon creation was to SLANDER (or here on the internet we call it LIBEL) an individual and foster a certain level of HOSTILITYagainst them. Lock 'er up. (edit because I can't type for beans on this phone anymore~)
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Apr 22, 2009 4:51:18 GMT
Random, A circus performer is represented as a circus performer and that is quite a different thing than a master martial artist. Circus performers have their tricks, and be not fooled that tricks is exactly what they are (I have performed as a juggler I've learned a few tricks) I don't know what all the tricks are nor will I ever claim that but tricks are tricks and not at all the same thing as martial prowess. what's more, a martial arts master has long been called upon to be not only a person of great physical talent and skill but a person of integrity and moral leadership. this is the role of a martial arts master: a leader of people and a teacher of students. had this stunt been performed by a person claiming to be a PERFORMER (circus or otherwise) the reaction would have been wholely different. No, this man claims to be a master martial artist, he claims the right to lead people in physical, mental, and spiritual discipline, he has hundreds if not thousands of so-called students who follow his leadership and mimick his actions in the desire to learn something, to become something, to mean something. in this he fails his students by showing them this "great thing" with no warning of how they may harm themselves or others by copying it. I don't have any issue with a highly skilled martial artist cutting a target held by hand, IF done with some thought and consideration and a warning is always good too. if you watch Mr Tom Urso's video of bamboo cutting (inserted below) in which he cuts some bamboo being held by a student you can see a HUGE difference in skill level comparative to Mr. Park.
I know Mr. Park would (because he HAS) defend this accusation with the claim that the ultimate skill is found in releasing form and being empty and formless. while I agree with the theory of formlessness being superior I don't call him of lesser skill because of a lack of form. having a little (18+ years) experience in sword play, it is my opinion that Mr. Park was off balance and not well controlled during that cut. it is also my opinion that in failing to be well balanced and well controlled that Mr. Park was not being respectful of the situation and not being respectfull of the damage he could do with a small slip. Had Mr. Park turned and cut on an approach theat would have carried his blade away from his student in the case of an accident or not come in so close to his student that the kissaki of his sword passed directly over his student's wrists I would have DEFENDED Mr. Park and this performance in the face of those who would have called it reckless and dangerous. it is a fine line of distinction to be sure, but it is there and Mr. Park placed himself on the wrong side of that line in my mind and I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.
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