Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 10:13:17 GMT
Hello all, I hope noone laughs but I have a question: On Cold Steel's "Fighting with the Sabre and Cutlass" they spar sort of in slowmotion or maybe 1/4 to 1/2 speed and of course do not hit each other very hard. They say it is to practice the movements, devolope finess, gain "muscle memory", etc.. They also recommend that you wear protective clothing, especially a three weapons grade fencing mask, etc.. A buddy and I are thinking of practicing and sparring together in such a way. Besides having to get the 3-Wpns Fencing mask elsewhere, what do y'all think of this suit for such sparring or practice? My buddy thought it would be just the ticket (parden the punn) for sparring with dull edged sabres. I don't know though. Seems a bit bulky to me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 10:15:19 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 10:16:35 GMT
One more try:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 11:07:31 GMT
That looks like it'd do the job, but does seem difficult to obtain.
If you're not going to be sparring all-out, have you thought about using padded and/or leather style armour? It might be cheaper and/or a fun project to home-make something like that! You would also be able to customise it to your requirements...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 11:08:47 GMT
Holy smoke, Freebooter! That's a helluva suit! If you guys can each afford one of those, then I don't see why they wouldn't work. They'd certainly offer you some serious protection. Even with such a suit, if you're still planning on using a couple of those Atlanta Cutlery/Windlass 1860s, you'll need to file down the edges a bit. Even though they don't come sharp, they still have an edge that's too acute to be safe for sparring.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Apr 1, 2007 13:18:51 GMT
well, considering you can buy yourself a good suit of sca grade armor for that price, I'd say that's a bit excessive
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 20:14:10 GMT
Thanks for the input y'all. It was really more my buddy's idea than mine. You are right, it is sort of excessive. The whole suit costs $400.00+ bucks. But I admit, it is cool. It is sort of reminiscent of Star Wars, Darth Vader's Emperial Storm Troopers or something. So anyway, if my buddy and I do this, I figure we will probably just go with leather stuff as was suggested. The guys on "Fighting with the Sabre and Cutlass" wear the type of leather stuff seen on this page www.tcafencing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=37 , and of course gloves and a three wpns type fencing mask. Here is the vest type thing, made of leather, that they wear, with a padded thing under it: . This stuff is less expensive too! Take care, Freebooter
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 20:34:16 GMT
well, considering you can buy yourself a good suit of sca grade armor for that price, I'd say that's a bit excessive Well I'd imagine in that suit you'd be a lot more comfortable and have a lot more freedom of movement than many SCA-Grade sets of armor that I've seen. Really, to be honest, I really don't agree with the way SCA does things. They're supposed to be recreating a fighting form where the armor involved is a mail shirt and open-faced helmet, maybe some thick leather gloves and boots. That type of armor is not too difficult to get through with a cut, and far easier than one would think to get through with a thrust. Yet their emphasis seems to be on how manly and macho they can be by hitting each other hard, like a pissing match of who can hit the hardest. A local SCA group actually has several photo albums, which they're very proud of, which contain dozens of pictures of big purple and black bruises, as if that makes what they do 'legitimate'. On paper, SCA is a good way to go- Train as if you're wearing light armor, but wear heavier armor for protection. But considering that leg shots are out, as are hand shots, and grappling/throwing techniqes, the tactics change dramatically. Also, they don't recognize hits unless they're 'killing blows', which to most SCA guys I've met means unless they get a big welting bruise, it doesn't count. Swords are efficient devices which kill with far less force than I've ever seen ANY SCA fight go. The fact that unbalanced rattan 'clubs' are used in place of swords, the fighting resembles that done with maces more than swords, IMHO. Of course I also realize that compromises must be made for safety, but I don't think the answer to some of these safety issues is just more armor. More armor makes it even harder to feel solid hits so harder hits are used which necessitates more armor, etc. etc. I think this represents stepping in the wrong direction. A good balance of safe balanced weapons which behave closer to actual swords would be a better way to go than just getting more and more armor. Realistic Sparring Weapons, for example, would be good I believe. I've never handled one, but Lancelot Chan has a Tinker(and all tinker's handle well), so he's got good experience with well balanced swords to go off of. I think it's safe to say they probably balance and respond in the hand closer to actual swords than rattan sticks, and they also happen to be a lot safer than rattan as well. Using these would allow people to wear less armor and still be safe. Less armor would mean they'd be more aware of hits so it wouldn't end up just a brute clubbing match. Now I'm the first to admit that even within the SCA there are varying degrees of all the above aspects. I'm not trying to blatantly insult anyone, I'm just calling it how I see it. There's a local guild associated with DEMAS that does steel-sword sparring with blunts, and all they wear are fencing masks, heavy gloves/gauntlets, and thick padded suits that cover the whole arms and torso. They spar full speed with good historical technique(with weapons varying from longsword to rapier to sidesword to variations of all the above, etc). I've never heard of them having an injury, as they have the skill and control to fight fast but still pull their hits enough to not maim one another. I'd much rather be associated with them than the SCA. My point is, judging all sparring equipment and tactics based on the SCA is a little bit silly, since SCA is only one such group(others exist that are almost never metioned, like ARMA, AEMMA, DEMAS, etc), and like ALL groups, they're far from perfect.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 20:52:57 GMT
Hello Adam, The way you describe it in this paragraph; There's a local guild associated with DEMAS that does steel-sword sparring with blunts, and all they wear are fencing masks, heavy gloves/gauntlets, and thick padded suits that cover the whole arms and torso. They spar full speed with good historical technique(with weapons varying from longsword to rapier to sidesword to variations of all the above, etc). I've never heard of them having an injury, as they have the skill and control to fight fast but still pull their hits enough to not maim one another. I'd much rather be associated with them than the SCA.
is about the way my buddy and I want to train, but not all out that fast, just slow at first to learn the moves, etc..
And yes, I have some friends in SCA and have seen their bruises. I too believe training should be to develope finess and skill and not to see how many bruises you can bestow or acrue. FB Freebooter
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 21:15:10 GMT
Looking at that armor, one thing keeps going through my head;
"Lord Vader, your shuttle has arrived."
If you can afford it, it might be fun, however I think I'd go more a homemade route.
-John
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2007 0:30:47 GMT
Hey RedJohn, I must agree with you. As I said earlier I will probably opt for that black Coaches' leather vest and sleeve attachment, etc.. The suit I spoke of is neat but expensive. And besides, I bet it is hot as a firecracker inside that thing. FB
|
|
Razor
Member
Review Points: 55
Today is tomorrow but not yet yesterday
Posts: 501
|
Post by Razor on Apr 2, 2007 4:15:29 GMT
hey Freebooter Have you looked at Triplette -Zen warrior armory. www.zenwarriorarmory.comGo to the SCAclothing they have a fencing jacket that starts about $50 for the small size and $97 for the larger size.If you want to make your on stuff go to miscellaneous they have foam padding, strong fabric, and mask frames you can make your own head armor.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2007 3:52:24 GMT
I take live steel fighting very seriously dispite the slow more controlled hits. The blunt weapons still have a very norrow edge and there is a great concentration of force should anyone get a little overexcited and make a wild swing. Broken fingers are common. That $500 dollar suit in my opinon is a bit pricy. You can probably put something just as got together yourself with a combination of hockey equipment and football pads. Most important, don't go cheep on guantlents, your hands will get hit and broken fingers take a long time to heal and rehab. Your next focus is head, throat, knee and elbow joints. Then kidneys. After that you can fill out what other areas you want. Here is another cheaper option to look at: darkvictory.com/html/catalog.htmlI was gona buy that initialy but then I decided to just put it together myself form 55 gal carwash barrels. With regard to SCA armor, I just assume that we are fighting unarmored. The armor is there for personal protection but not recognized for defence in the fight. It is hard enough to get past the shield and weapon defence of most decent fighters as it is. And the armor most fighters use, leaves them agile enough so that you can can't see the sword fly through the air. You have to train yourself to look at their shoulder and then guess where the sword is from there. That should never be the case in livesteel because the blade is supose to be moving slower.
|
|
Razor
Member
Review Points: 55
Today is tomorrow but not yet yesterday
Posts: 501
|
Post by Razor on Apr 5, 2007 3:51:41 GMT
Hey tsafa
I'm looking for some gauntlets for sparring.What do you think of the Paul Chen gauntlets or the Ashcraft Baker's gauntlets , would you consider them cheap and not a good for sparring or good enough for sparring?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2007 7:34:41 GMT
Freebooter: not as hot as you might imagine, the fabric absorbs the moisture and then "sweats" it out keeping the suit regulated just like the human body, so whilst it gets hot it is not stiflingly so. It is a great idea but it is very very hard to get that kind of gear. The only way you would get authorization is if you are swat, high security prison or army.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Apr 5, 2007 22:24:08 GMT
adma I partially agree with your description of sca fighting, however I think that the attitude alone makes it worth being a part of. And there is more skill involved than clubbing each other over the head. I've found that many of the sca sword I've worked with have a center of balance not far from a real sword, so they certainly don't handle like clubs. They weight isn't far off either.
Now about the leg rules: This is a safety issue and cannot be debated. A hefty blow from a fast swinging rattan to the knee can permanently maim you. you ARE however allowed to hit the thighs and they are certainly a valid and well sougtt after target. And when you think about it, HALF of the leg is open to shots. Sure you can't cleave someone's ankles off and jump on top of them as they fall to the floor, but other than that, I think it's ok as is.
Obviously the sca is not perfect and it is no where near actual historical schools. However, it does an excellent job of bridging the gap between pansy and flowery stage fighting and true combat.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2007 23:34:32 GMT
Hey Razor, I recently orderd a pair of those armored gauntlets from MRL. They are the black leather gauntlets with the top of the hands, fingers, and thumb covered in small ring type chainmail. The forearm parts are covered with slats of plate armor. They cost me $75.00 bucks. I half expected them to be some pieces of crap that would fall apart. I was wrong. They are extremely well made.
But I don't want them for two reasons: They are slightly small for me (I ordered XL). Actually once they are on the fit ok but I can hardly get my big fat fist through the wrist area. The other reason I decided I don't want them is that they are a little too heavy for my liking. Might you be interested in them? I have only put them on about four times. Give me a hollar if interested. Freebooter Alabama
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2007 23:59:09 GMT
adma I partially agree with your description of sca fighting, however I think that the attitude alone makes it worth being a part of. And there is more skill involved than clubbing each other over the head. I've found that many of the sca sword I've worked with have a center of balance not far from a real sword, so they certainly don't handle like clubs. They weight isn't far off either. I very much aggree. I have found that may basket hilt act as a good counter weight (pommol) to balance the sword. They come in different styles and weights. I love the one from Ascroft/Baker. I order rattan in diffrent levels of thickness so I can make different style swords with different weights and cut them to different lengths. The amount of the tape you put on the tips effects the ballance too. You can really fine tune it to the exact balance you want. I have a viking balanced one that weighs in at 2 lbs 14 oz. A long norman style one at 3 lbs 1 oz, and a real cleaver at 3 lbs 7 oz I use in malee. I have a few others in between. I have seen people use all sorts of balanced swords very effectivly with proper body mechanics and have concluded that is what make the biggest differnce. All your shots have to come from the hip. The sheild defence also involves tilting the hips front and back. The arms tire very quickly and loose power if you don't use you lower body. Using proper body mechanics and momentum flow from one shot into the next makes for effective combinations to open your opponent. It sounds easy, but it is hard as hell to learn and much harder to use in a fight when the other person is intentionaly trying to stop your flow. Safty first, we want to have fun and learn, not get hurt. Also I have found from live steel practice and rapier fencing, where shins are good target areas, that by going after someones lower leg you really expose youself. You have to get a lot closer or lean forward to hit the shin. Your head will be exposed before you can reach his shin. If you get really close you can't hit the shin at all. Your can however reach the back of his thigh with a wrap shot. Cheep shots and bully tactics can be very effective if used sparingly as a supprise but your whole statagy should not depend on that because such things are easy to counter. A shin shot not only travels a longer distance but the blade is at an angle that is easier to see. It is harder for the person throwing that shot to recover his arm safely. Very Well said.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2007 0:18:04 GMT
Hey tsafa I'm looking for some gauntlets for sparring.What do you think of the Paul Chen gauntlets or the Ashcraft Baker's gauntlets , would you consider them cheap and not a good for sparring or good enough for sparring? For practice at full speed and full power there is only one way to go. You wear padded street hockey gloves $35 and then Kyndex Guantlets $150 over them. You can see them here: icefalcon.safeshopper.com/27/cat27.htm?752These are the ones I have and use. This other guy has the Kyndex Guantlets for $110. Ice Facone more well known and top notch professional. I get my rattan from him too. www.digitalky.net/egg/01.htmI don't see the street hocky gloves on his site. You will have to get them from Ice Falcon above. You have to use the too together. This is the best way to go, other then the full metal guantlets and those are in the $500 range. Ascroft/Baker does not make any guantlets as far as I can tell. Don't bother with mail guantlets, you can still break your hands. Trust me on this, in Live Steel you are more likely to break you hands then anything else. A lot of guys that do it take a macho attitude that they know what they are doing. Thats just bullsemprini, don't fall for that, accidents happen. Livesteel is usualy not very well regulated, so it is up to YOU to protect yourself. Always wear a helmet too. They are not supose to hit your head, so you can get a lighter helmet, make sure it as a full plastic face cover. You don't want your face scared and stitched up. The street hockey gloves will have a padded coller around the wrist, if that gets in you way you can cut that out. A lot of guys do that. The kydex guantlets covers that area well enough. What most guys do is permanently attach the street hockey gloves to the inside of the guantlents so that they are able to slip them on as one peice. One thing to keep in mind is that guantlets in general take up space. Make sure you get a blunt or a waster that has enough space on the handle. You don't want a hand and half sword for practice, get a real two hander with a 16 inch handle that comes up to your elbow.
|
|
Razor
Member
Review Points: 55
Today is tomorrow but not yet yesterday
Posts: 501
|
Post by Razor on Apr 6, 2007 7:09:43 GMT
Thank you tsafa for all the information and armor sites.I have a wooden waster from New Stirling Arms and not planning on sparring with live steel any time soon. I train more like ARMA than the SCA so I was thinking if two gauntlets would work? The Ashcraft gauntlets are under clamshell www.ashcraftbaker.com/msclams.htm
|
|