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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 21:29:27 GMT
You read it right, cutting ice. Had an idea one night after thinking about a way to increase a water bottle's density to test for a much more difficult cut. Then thought.... why not freeze the water and then cut it? I was worried that my DH swords couldn't stand against such a target without retaining damage, so I got out the Tenchi. Now I was worried if the sword was sharp enough, but gave it a go and here's the results: Not the cleanest cut but it traveled all the way through, cutting the plastic on the other end. The swing that was used was a left handed Hidari Yokogiri, horozontial cut. Alot of speed and body movement was used. Practicing the newspaper cutting from the gumdo training curriculum all week long helped my edge alignment and speed alot, so it wasn't too hard. No edge damage was retained. I strongly advise only using a strong niku through hardened blade such as the tenchi, I am not going to try this with any of my DH swords unless someone else wants to give it a try ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 21:47:13 GMT
Nice pictures and cool idea.
However, isn't that a bit destructive ? I mean, ice seems to me like a very hard target for a blade.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2009 0:21:53 GMT
Before cutting any medium you should know the limits of your blade. To cut any target without this understanding is a very dangerous practice. I am glad you are not hurt but ice+plastic bottle = destructive testing on the highest level.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Mar 15, 2009 0:46:34 GMT
Well, I wouldn't trust much to do this myself, but with a tenchi? Not an everyday medium, for sure, but not the worst it can take. thanks for testing this out. I've had similar thoughts, but I don't have any swords durable enough to endure this, so I haven't tried it. If you could get a video, that would be totally cool. I'm sure that tom would put it in the 'cool cuts' gallery. ;D -Slayer
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2009 1:24:36 GMT
Now that is what I call testing
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 15, 2009 1:28:04 GMT
I don't know man, this seems unsafe to me. I'm not sure what the density and hardness of ice is but I bet it's more than bamboo and that's getting close to the top end of what we should be cutting. I suppose if it was a cool cut (not just in tempurature mind) I'd put it in but I'm just not convinced this is safe yet. does anybody know some more about the hardness of ice? this bears some investigation. perhaps my initial trepidation is unfounded.
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Mar 15, 2009 1:53:15 GMT
I'm not to sure about this either. One the hand I think its extremely cool cut, on the other hand I feel this is at least moderately dangerous. Still, at the end of the day, its your blade and your risk of damaging it. I reiterate, a cool test.(pun intended.)
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Mar 15, 2009 2:29:11 GMT
I had intended to stay out of this thread , but as the moderator I guess I should throw in a disclaimer here... Far be it from me to tell anyone what to do... but if you were to choose to attempt this (I highly discourage it BTW) please take appropriate safety cautions , up to and including safety goggles... and make sure the area is cleared of any human , pets or inanimate objects that maybe precious to you ... I believe that this may well qualify as abuse.. and may be a good way to damage a edge , set a blade or even snap it... Though a sword may make the cut fine once , twice or seventy-three times ... but this definitely stresses the hell out of the blade ... I'm not one to censor or condemn, hopefully the open discourse will help to enlighten readers about the questioable nature of this target . Also ... everyone has behaved admirably so far... I appreciate it... please everyone , we don't need any crusaders in this thread ranting and raving about this and attacking the OP as we have seen in other threads ... If anyone wishes to comment on why such targets are either viable or inappropriate, that is VERY welcome... but PLEASE keep it civil as everyone has so far... Thanks That said... very creative... looks like you had fun... glad your sword handled it OK
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2009 3:44:21 GMT
Thanks marc, I advise the same.
I'm not going to do this anymore, but it was a itch that had to be scratched and thought it would be nice to share the outcome ;D
This concludes that the tenchi is the strongest blade in production, in my opinion.
If anyone else wants to try this, please read what marc said and also make sure you know your blade. I knew the tenchi could handle this target because it's a through hardened blade using shinogi zukuri with heavy niku. I wouldn't ever use anything less for this target.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 15, 2009 5:16:19 GMT
on a slight side note, I noticed the mention of wearing safety equipment. I have often wondered what real protection a plastic face shield, etc. could offer from a flying bit of broken blade that you just used to cut into something like a steel drum. I figure if I'm going to heavy destructive testing, I'll wear armor AND a face shield to boot. I remember seeing Ric Willy split a hard hard with a gladius in one review. what safety equipment can really be called safe? I think prevention, caution, and common sense are the PPE best suited to this situation.
just my random $0.02
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2009 5:40:51 GMT
I must admit I once used the VA degesse as a giant icepick to break up the ice in an old frige icebox. Admittedly safety was not on my mind at the time as I was screaming curses and half-swording at the ice. I guess we all have our moments. I do feel I somehow captured the right attitude however in which the weapon was designed to be used in.
BTW, the event did prove to me that while the VA degesse can barely cut cardboard boxes it is a damn good thruster.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2009 6:09:57 GMT
Well the lexan face shields we use for ice sculpting will stop a chainsaw long enough for it to powerdown when your not holding the trigger on it anymore. They are pretty good protection actually.
As for ice as a cutting medium...it is abuse and dangerous. I personally know 3 chefs that have had serious injury and 1 dead chef doing ice sculpting from having various tools break on them in the process...and these are thing designed for cutting ice. It is in fact a VERY important thing to check your tools if you do this a lot as the metal fatigues VERY quickly...and because of the temperature, you can't feel the fatigue while your working with the tool until it snaps. So generally speaking...not a good idea for a cutting medium. If you want a safe tougher taget, use double density ballistic gel in a bottle. Use double or even tripple the amount of geletin and it makes for some uber tough tagrets if your so inclined.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2009 7:18:11 GMT
The problem with ice is that unlike other substances it has no plains of fracture, it has no micro cracks it is to all intents and purposes it is completely solid. Most other targets that you will cut will have some sort of fractal plains with its atomic structure, this not true of ice. The second issue with a target like this is that plastic bottles are designed to stop from being broken if dropped. Cutting water bottles even just with plain water in it is considered in some circles abusive. The density of a litre of ice is staggering in regards to the cutting plains of sword. www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/122Adensityice.htmlFurthermore as ice freezes it expands and hardens which is why it shatters containers. Because of this expansion of ice and density that is why ice is such a dangerous cutting medium.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2009 13:54:51 GMT
I was cutting water bottles a while back and after a few bottles I noticed that some of them were frozen (there wasn't a nice splash, and the bottom hit the ground with a thud). I did not continue cutting them after that as I thought that it might be unsafe. The few frozen ones I did cut were not frozen completely solid. They did not feel any different to cut than the liquid ones and the ice had a nice smooth edge. No damage to the sword, user or loved ones
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Post by YlliwCir on Mar 15, 2009 14:00:55 GMT
Well done, Trevor. I won't revisit the abuse or danger potential of this medium as it's been well covered. Blades have certainly broken on a lot less, clotheslines, snow, rope and water bottles to name a few. I have gave a thought or two to trying cutting frozen bottles, my wife actually suggested it once but I blew it off as her being an uninformed normal person and not feasible. Ha! You showed me, eh? I may or may not try this, if I do I have just the sword for it. +1 for something new.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2009 18:18:13 GMT
its cool that somebody tried this, i left some bottles out a few weeks back, frozen solid the next day, i considered cutting them but ended up not doing...... maybe i should have.... This concludes that the tenchi is the strongest blade in production, in my opinion. my moneys on the DF musha for that i cut a 1" wooden post yesterday, hardly 4 inch of ice, but im not exactly a good cutter, the blade cut it easily and it didnt leave a scratch.
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Post by YlliwCir on Mar 17, 2009 9:46:28 GMT
I cut a frozen water bottle yesterday, a couple times actually. ;DUsed my Rittersteel full tang kat. That things a tank.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 23:29:39 GMT
awesome, im starting to wish id tried it now...
hard cuts, done right, are really rather satisfying
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Post by kidcasanova on Mar 18, 2009 0:53:09 GMT
I dont see the density of ice being a problem, seeing as it is less dense than water (which is why it expands, Blood, it breaking the container would really just make one less bit to cut through). It's the whole "solid with no fractal planes" part that is what I'd be worried about. Goodness knows Paul has taken blades to tougher targets, but please do be safe (wear some goggles, face mask, something).
Otherwise, neat idea.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Mar 18, 2009 1:12:51 GMT
Ice is hard....
Ice is unyeilding
Hard is bad for for the edge
Unyeilding is bad for the structural integrity of the blade...
Speculate all you want... but bottom line is it IS abuse, and eventually will damage the blade and possibly yourself or others...
That said... I've cut my share of stupid targets... not bad really.. just be aware of what you are doing when you do it, don't fool yourself into thinking its not abusive and dangerous...
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