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Post by jasmineleaf on Mar 5, 2009 4:58:04 GMT
Hey everyone, It's been awhile, but I assure you that I've been reading regularly! So, I was engaged in a conversation with one of my native Japanese friends who has been living, and still continues to live, in Tokyo, Japan. As we probably all can assume, her mother tongue and primary language is Japanese, therefore she seems like a decently "credible" source. There were also some other native Japanese speakers at the table (since we're talking a group of people here), all of whom conceded whenever a point was made. Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because I have been noticing a growing sensitivity over the word: "tsuka," a part of the Katana that we all love. Heck, there are even videos on YouTube dedicated entirely to the cause, and likewise on forum boards all over the internet. However, due to the nature of these videos, their respective audiences, and those who tend to be exposed to content from the Americas, there rarely are credible sources or speakers there to back up any of the claims. To be honest, the majority of the people who are sensitive over the subject are those who aren't even fluent in Japanese and/or have pronunciation issues themselves when it comes to the language. That's not to say that they cannot hold an opinion on the subject, it's just to say that they shouldn't be so aggressive and demeaning in their crusade to exterminate any alternative pronunciations (even those that may be correct, if not more so than their own.) Let me remind you that like any language, the readings and pronunciations in Japanese vary according to region, to the person, the following word(s), the sentence, and, sometimes, even the context. With that in mind, we mustn't forget the subjective nature of what we are arguing! So, since I was granted the opportunity, I asked the Japanese speakers how they would pronounce the word... The most common response was in fact: "Tsu-ka," with the "tsu" being like the "tsu" in "tsunami" and "ka" like "kah." I'd like to mention that I was pretty thorough in my questioning and made it clear that what I was concerned about was the "tsu," and whether or not it should be emphasized, deemphasized, silenced, etc. After much inquisition, the verdict was that it should be said: "with the 'u' pronounced in a short burst, like u's are always pronounced in Japanese." Basically, what came to be was: "tsu (short 'u,' like you would say in "wakaru") and then "ka." None of them pronounced it the way that a lot of these angry YouTubers are claiming it should be said. And that is, essentially: "ska." However, they did say to keep in mind that it depends on region, dialect, etc. so they cannot speak for everyone; but they believed that this was probably the way most people would pronounce it. Think of this way: When a native Japanese speaker says: "tsugi wa", they don't say: "gi wa," "sgi wa," or even "tsgi wa" they say: "tsu-gi wa." And, contrary to popular belief, the 'U' does bear a sound, even if it's slight. A good comparison with the whole 'U' problem would be with the common word: "desu." Many angry YouTubers are out there screaming that the "su" should never EVER under any circumstance be pronounced. However, in reality, native speakers OFTEN say "su" very very quickly, sometimes softly, and on certain occasions, even quite distinctly. Like I mentioned before, it truly depends on the situation. Besides, "desu" (with a very very very short "su") would be technically more correct than an absolute: "DESSSSSS," but it often depends on the following word or desired intonation. It seems as though some people who aren't really sure of what they're talking about are trying to make a case over nothing - and in all honesty, it sometimes is simply aggravating; especially when I am being told that the way I pronounce it is incorrect, and that I am somehow disrespecting tradition and/or Japanese culture. Anyway, happy "tsuka saying!" P.S: I am sure there are some people who say "ska," and have been told it's correct by some Japanese speakers as well, but keep in mind that I am not here to claim that "IT MUST BE PRONOUNCED THE WAY THAT I I HEARD IT FROM THESE SPECIFIC JAPANESE SPEAKERS," but rather that this way is accepted as well (if not more frequently) and that people should stop killing each other or getting into "I am more culturally correct than you are" fights.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 5:41:45 GMT
I wouldn't go so far as to say its disrespectful to the culture by mispronouncing a word. That's to be expected when dabbling in a language that you are not familiar with. Although, native speakers may (in some cases) find it annoying... Many of the terms for the Japanese sword get "Westernized" by the lack of understanding of Japanese vowels. Katana - is the biggest one of them all. People rarely pronounce the word correctly, and is often spoken without any application of syllables in the structure of the word. People pronounce it "katana" (which is correct), but tend to speak the 'a' at the end like "katan-ugh". The natives pronounce it "ka-ta-na" with the very slight break in syllables & crisp 'ah' sounds for the 'a'. [FWIW: I'm not sure any of this will make sense? Its kinda hard to equate sounds into text... ] Samurai - is another constantly mispronounced word. The 'u' is usually the problem. You here people say "Samurai" and pronounce it like "Sam-yur-eye" (usually by British folks <No offense ). And in the U.S. you here "Samurai" said as "Sam-er-eye". These are both incorrect, but you still understand what they are trying to say. The way i was taught to say it, and the way most Japanese say it is "Sam-ooo-rye" with the 'o' making an 'u' sound. Like "you" only without the 'y'. Back to the tsuka topic,.. i too have been taught by my Sensei (who was taught by his Sensei & so on) that "tsuka" is pronounced by dropping the 'u' with only the slightest touch of the 't'. The result sounds like "ska" but there is just the tiniest bit of 't' at the front of the word made by a quick flick of the tongue. The same thing is done for tsuba... (or, so i was taught). Again, dropping the 'u', with the slightest touch of 't'. Which sounds like "sba", again, with the tiniest bit of 't' sound at the beginning. The examples of this are endless... Koshirae - for example is often said "Kosh-eee-ray", whereas i was taught to pronounce it "Kosh-air-aye". Who really knows who is right? There are so many different dialects, from so many different regions that over time mix around and change. I have even heard two Japanese natives talking to each other, and both pronounced certain words differently. All we can do is try our best to find out the proper way, or trust our teachers that have taught us that way... I think one should attempt to learn the proper way to speak a language which is foreign to them... But as long as your message is conveyed & understood, that is better than being unable to communicate at all. But this thinking is lost on "Grammer Nazi's"
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Post by jasmineleaf on Mar 5, 2009 5:49:30 GMT
Yup, I agree wholeheartedly with your James! And I am glad that you recognize that there are different ways to pronounce the word, all of which are deemed correct. Let's hope some of the "absolute ska" advocates read this and take off their angry rants that accuse people of crimes they aren't committing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 5:55:21 GMT
Actually I have always pronounced it as tsu-ka (like tsugi). I have watched a lot of japanese programs, that it has remained some what embedded in my mind. In other words like Sue-ka
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 6:11:38 GMT
Yup, I agree wholeheartedly with your James! And I am glad that you recognize that there are different ways to pronounce the word, all of which are deemed correct. Let's hope some of the "absolute ska" advocates read this and take off their angry rants that accuse people of crimes they aren't committing. Yeah, its kinda hypocritical when you think about it... There are people so bold, as to say "if you can't speak the language properly, then don't speak it at all". But... I can imagine if someone was behind them about to stab them through the heart, they would not mind you giving warning, - no matter how badly you may mispronounce it...
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 5, 2009 7:26:09 GMT
I've always given a slight u sound when faced with "tsu," but tend to cut my "su" short. I blame the Rozen Maiden anime and the character Suiseiseki for making "dessoooooo" so annoying, and in doing so creating the meme which mimmicked her. Yeah...you had to be there... I have also found it amusing that all the hardcore "ska" advocates (the ones who go to great lengths to make sure people hear them pronounce it this way) aren't so concerned with sbas. No, they'll gladly tell you all about the soobuh, though.
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 5, 2009 7:41:47 GMT
I have also found it amusing that all the hardcore "ska" advocates (the ones who go to great lengths to make sure people hear them pronounce it this way) aren't so concerned with sbas. No, they'll gladly tell you all about the soobuh, though. HA!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 15:53:39 GMT
You know, I've been meaning to ask about some pronunciations myself. Maybe we just need to have a "meeting of the minds" and put together a sword term glossary.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 17:05:29 GMT
I find a used to pronounce the word Hamon wrong. I used to say is like ham-in completely ignoring the O, until I heard someone say ha-moan. I have heard people say both Tsu-ka and Ska, I say Tsu-ka myself. Tsuba goes the same way, I say it Tsu-ba like a sheep Typical American screwing up how a foreign word is said. I just dont worry about it.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Mar 5, 2009 17:24:55 GMT
Yeah, lol. I always thought that 'saya' was pronounced 'say-a' instead of 'sigh-a'. Not to mention that I also had the above-mentioned issue with 'ham-in' . I actually don't drop the 't' in tsuba and tsuka. I know that saying it 'te-su-bah' is incorrect, but it's a bad habit, lol. Good points, all of you. I guess that the slight differences in pronunciation don't really matter, as long as they know what you're saying. ;D -Slayer
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Mar 5, 2009 17:29:51 GMT
Hmm . . . When I first learned about the parts of a katana, it was from a caucasian sensei whose first language was English. He pronounced tsuka as "sookuh", much like his pronunciation of tsuba as "soobuh". I've just taken it on faith that this was the way to pronounce these words.
--Edward
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 17:33:23 GMT
Great idea for a thread. I'd love to stop sounding like a moron when I'm talking swords! I too used to say ham-in and I have heard it pronounced hay-moan and also hah-moan. I'm still not sure which is right..lol I just keeping saying stuff and figure someone will correct me one day
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 5, 2009 17:40:54 GMT
What Jasmine and James have said about the different dialects and regional quirks is true and VERY prominent in the Japanese language. for such a small country they have an increadibly vast arangement of dialects that can often be so different as to confuse native speakers from time to time. that being said there are a few things us westerners can learn to help us.
1. understand that 99.99999% of western Japanese launguage instruction teaches the Tokyo dialect. it is not an official "correct" version for all of japanese; just how things are said in Tokyo.
2. clip those vowels. if you ever hear a Japanese person try to sound like a westerner they almost always over-extend their vowels resulting in rediculously elongated sounds. this is because that's how we sound to them. so to sound more like a Japanese native speaker us westerners must say our vowels more quickly. how much is up for debate but I find that Japanese vowels feel like they are held for about half the time of the typical mid-western USA vowel, maybe a little less, even leaning towards 1/3. to us this will make the language feel rather clipped and stucatto.
3. every vowel is pronounced the same way every time. in English our vowel have at least two different official sounds but there are also many dipthongs (I think that's the right term, english majors lend a hand!) that change the sound a little bit. this is never the case in Japanese. now before some of you jump up and down with examples like "Geisha" is spoken like it has only one vowel in the place of that "ei" it's a long A not an e and an i. but it IS an E and an I. the way japanese pronounce those letters make them combine to sound like the american long A. it's a matter of perspective really.
4. building off of #3 we should know that every vowel gets pronounced. the trick is that sometimes it is so soft and/or so quick that our westernears miss it. there's a little more flexibility in this rule than the last one but for the most part it's true.
5 don't get worked up about it, anyone looking at the typical westerner is not going to mistake him or her for a Japanese person. putting forth an honest effort to do things right should and in most cases will be respected by the native speakers.
like I said the above are GENERAL rules of thumb. none of them are absolute. the western mind perceives vowel and word sounds differently than the eastern mind and creates many difficulties to add on an already difficult process.
my Tsuka is said in a way that may almost sound like "tska" but I assure you the "U" is in there. it's just rather subtle.
I'm not saying I'm right either. that's just how I say it.
I also think that in order to REALLY put this to rest we'd have to ask a native Japanese speaker who is also an accomplished practitioner of a Japanese sword art or sword craftsman. remember often times people will mispronounce words that are technical terms in fields they are not expert in. Tsuka, tsuba and the lot are deffinitely technical terms. I'm not saying Jasmine Leaf's native speakers were wrong I'm just saying that just because a person is a native doesn't mean they know everything to do with their language or culture. how many english words do you hear mispronounced by native speakers on a daily basis? I know I hear plenty.
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Post by wiwingti on Mar 5, 2009 18:32:26 GMT
thanks tom to answer back to that. i couldn't have say it better. i am not english so explaining these are very hard but, it couldn't have been more clear.
i searched a way to explain it this morning when i came back from work but didn't find the way to say that.
karma to you tom and a big smile from ear to ear.
marc
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Post by jasmineleaf on Mar 5, 2009 19:02:51 GMT
Very true Tom! I also considered that perhaps they weren't part of the field of expertise, so their pronunciation of the word could have been a little off. Either way No one in this thread is out to set the record unchangeably / absolutely straight and dictate how this word is to be said, but rather just make others aware of correct alternatives . I also liked what 'Randomnobody' said about "tsoo-ka" and "tsoo-ba," that's a fantastic point.
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Post by k on Mar 5, 2009 20:37:22 GMT
I think that people with english as native language think of and read f.ex japanese and japanese words in another way than for instance people with swedish as native language, depending among other things on how we are used to pronounce wowels. I don´t know how the wowels are pronounced in japanese, or not pronounced. But I know english wowels don´t sound like swedish and we think of different sounds when we see a letter symbolizing a sound.
We never, for instance , pronounce an i as in I, the letter i here is always like an e for you, almost as in in. I is something like aj for us and so on.
So, there are different difficulties depending on what someone is used to from the own language. Hamon is for me haamon but with short a, without e; a not ae, like u in under. Not haemon, and not haemin. But what is correct in japanese I don´t know.
If I got it right(?) the u wich is barely pronounced if at all, in f.ex. the words tsuba ans tsuka is something like the swedish o, but very short and a bit softer? Perhaps. I don´t know. It seems to me that in english the u, sometimes becomes a swedish a, like in duck. Is that the a in hamon? That is my guess anyway.
Well it does´nt makes so much sence for you I assume. You´ll have to learn swedish first;)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 20:56:00 GMT
If you want to learn the melody and sounds of a language, listen to how a native speaks english. The melody and the pronounciations of letters and sounds shines through quite clearly.
I've learnt quite a lot from this.
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Post by k on Mar 5, 2009 21:12:54 GMT
Yes that is true Ichiban. I don´t have so much problems with the english pronounciation though, (according to me that is;), as with the japanese. So I would like to listen to a japanese native, but I don´t know any.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 22:53:53 GMT
Good thread, +1 to you. It's funny because I used to pronounce it "su-ka" all the time. But then while talking with my sensei he corrected me and said it's pronounced the "ska" way. But it still hurts my head to force myself to say it like that. Now, 100% correct or not, I will feel comfortable saying my old way, "su-ka".
Thanks ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2009 0:56:43 GMT
2. clip those vowels. if you ever hear a Japanese person try to sound like a westerner they almost always over-extend their vowels resulting in rediculously elongated sounds. this is because that's how we sound to them. so to sound more like a Japanese native speaker us westerners must say our vowels more quickly. how much is up for debate but I find that Japanese vowels feel like they are held for about half the time of the typical mid-western USA vowel, maybe a little less, even leaning towards 1/3. to us this will make the language feel rather clipped and stucatto. If a vowel is between two non-voiced consonants, then it can be "clipped". I think they call it elision or something.
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