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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 11:39:30 GMT
Peened and compressed , peened to tang, and dismountable. All are used but has any modern blade EVER been tested with pommel attacks? I want a UBER strong pommel because its there to BE used. Any differences in strength between them, FOR ATTACKS? Something to ponder! Maybe you re-peen on someones HEAD ;D!! (Sorry, bad humor)!
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Post by ShooterMike on Dec 23, 2008 16:20:28 GMT
That's an interesting question. I've thought about it from the attack perspective, be never really about strength. Hmmm...
The way I see it, there are three types of pommel attacks I can think of. The first is the typical "buttstrike" where the sword is held normally and the pommel is smashed into the opponent ala the namesake for the scent stopper pommel. In that attack the pommel is forced onto the tang, so I would think almost any decent hilt assembly would work well.
The second attack with the pommel I can understand, would be a wrenching or prying attack. That would be where the pommel is hooked around part of the opponent's body or clothing and the sword is used as a lever to wrench the opponent into a position of disadvantage. That would place more sideways stress on the pommel and tang. I could see some less sturdy types possibly failing here, especially if it were done repeatedly.
The third attack would be from reversing the sword and holding it by the blade, striking with the hilt ala the "murder stroke." Normally, this is intended to use the guard as the point of impact. But we all know that things don't always happen as planned. So I could see the pommel actually landing the blow at times. This seems like it would stress th pommel the most.
In all three scenarios above, it seems to me that pommels that are threaded and screw directly onto the tang would be far and away the most likely to break off the tang. And that pommels that are press-fit (hammered securely) onto a beefy tang, whether they be secured by peening or a pommel nut, would be the more durable by far.
This press-fit type of assembly can be done easily with either pommel nut or peened assembly. But most sword makers don't do it, as the demand doesn't seem to be there to justify the added expense.
My thoughts on the question. And it's a very interesting one too!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 16:28:01 GMT
There's also the punch. Many guards aren't made for an effective punch, so you'd want to hit with the pommel if you're wielding one of them. That's some pretty significant shearing force applied.
I actually would not really want a separate pommel if I intended a lot of pommel strikes. I would want the blade, tang and pommel formed as a single piece...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 16:37:25 GMT
Good analysis Mike. Taran, I'm not sure if this is what you mean by punch: You punch at someone (possibly in a "hook" style), "miss" with the fist and the pommel clips the guy? This probably would put the same kind of forces as the murder stroke as described above, but not as much. I will say this though - if you just hit someone on the head with your pommel hard enough to damage it, he's probably stunned and you have time to hit him again with your now damaged sword before he comes back to
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 17:06:22 GMT
You would actually twist your wrist to specifically hit him with your pommel as opposed to your guard. As I'm not familiar with the "murder stroke" I can't really say how it would compare.
But, regardless, if I'm doing a lot of pommel attacks, I don't want it peened or compressed or screwed onto my sword.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 23, 2008 17:17:20 GMT
I agree pretty much completely with ShooterMike. A pommel that is keyed and pressed on to the tang whether secured by peening or pommel nut would be much sturdier than a screw on pommel. Most of the time when we do pommel strikes while training we're doing a sort of durchwechseln where we're in the bind and changing from the point forward on one side of the opponents blade to the pommel forward on the other side of the opponents blade. This results in either a jab-like strike with the but of the pommel or a hook like strike with the side of the pommel. For the latter version a keyed pommel would be far less likely to fail than a threaded on pommel. Haven't ever yet had occasion to use the murder strike other than in jest. I think it normally flows from a half-sword grip more common when fighting in armor than blossfechten.
As a small side... I'm pretty sure the scent stopper pommel gets it's name from being shaped like the scent stopper on a perfume bottle rather than from bopping a guy in the nose.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 23, 2008 17:22:34 GMT
Hey Taran, in the "murder strike" you have both of your hands on the blade and are using the sword like a pick to puncture your opponents helmet (skull) with your crossguard.
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Post by Erick R. on Dec 23, 2008 17:36:00 GMT
I actually would not really want a separate pommel if I intended a lot of pommel strikes. I would want the blade, tang and pommel formed as a single piece... break You would actually twist your wrist to specifically hit him with your pommel as opposed to your guard. As I'm not familiar with the "murder stroke" I can't really say how it would compare. But, regardless, if I'm doing a lot of pommel attacks, I don't want it peened or compressed or screwed onto my sword. I'm not sure you understand the construction of a non S.L.O. those are your only options is you want a SWORD.
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Post by ShooterMike on Dec 23, 2008 17:36:57 GMT
...As a small side... I'm pretty sure the scent stopper pommel gets it's name from being shaped like the scent stopper on a perfume bottle rather than from bopping a guy in the nose. That's what I thought as well. But I have been told adamantly by various sword makers that it's a design made specifically for busting an opponent in the nose, thus stopping his ability to "scent anything". I kinda think it's maybe a combination of each in the naming.
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 23, 2008 17:52:05 GMT
...As a small side... I'm pretty sure the scent stopper pommel gets it's name from being shaped like the scent stopper on a perfume bottle rather than from bopping a guy in the nose. That's what I thought as well. But I have been told adamantly by various sword makers that it's a design made specifically for busting an opponent in the nose, thus stopping his ability to "scent anything". I kinda think it's maybe a combination of each in the naming. Agreed ...I believed that as well...it was Gus who told me otherwise... that it referred to the same meaning as beak-breaker
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 17:56:37 GMT
... I would think that most pommels would work pretty darn well at busting noses! Maybe the warriors of the time weren't comfortable with the perfume link and invented an alternative explanation they liked better?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 18:03:06 GMT
But, regardless, if I'm doing a lot of pommel attacks, I don't want it peened or compressed or screwed onto my sword. It's worked well enough so far. And even in arts that practice it, I don't think they're used "a lot". Not to mention they you're striking a target that gives, not a brick wall. The only sword I've ever seen with a completely integral pommel and guard is a Hanwei Jian. And as far as I'm aware, the Chinese didn't make much, if any, use of pommel strikes. Atleast not hammer-like, as we're referring to here.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Dec 23, 2008 18:09:16 GMT
Yeah I agree with Mike on the analysis of stresses to the pommel. The Mortschlag would definitly cause the most stress as well as damage to the opponent. I cant see the other two strikes damaging a well made sword though. I would think as long as the peen was good your sword would hold up....I wouldnt use the Mortschlag repeatedly tough....I can see bent cross guards and tangs along with cracked grips from too many of those strikes.
As for blade and hilt being all one assembly, I'd be interested to see any historical example. I've handled Hanweis Damascus Trondheim...and It was..well....different in heft and balance. Im not sure how the casting would hold up. Where the blade met the guard, it was not smooth or uniform and looked rather like a messy weld...
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Post by ShooterMike on Dec 23, 2008 19:20:35 GMT
...But, regardless, if I'm doing a lot of pommel attacks, I don't want it peened or compressed or screwed onto my sword. taran, it sounds like this is the line of swords for you. angustrimdirect.com/tacswords.htmI have been wanting one of these since they came out. I've settled on a tactical cuttoe. But I haven't been able to talk Gus out of one yet.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 23, 2008 20:29:56 GMT
Not sure how you'd get the cross-guard on if the pommel was forged as part of the blade. Also, kind of a waste of a big chunk of high carbon steel.
Maybe the scent stopper was originally meant as a bit of a play on words. It's shaped like a perfume bottle's scent stopper and also works nicely to bop someone in the schnoz. Seems to big of a coincidence that it would be shaped just like an object which was already called a scent stopper (for fragrance bottles) but have no connection. If it was only meant in the context of bashing someone in the nose a better name might have been something more like "smell stopper" since you don't "scent" with your nose. Anyone actually done any etymological research on this? Be interesting to know more about it.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Dec 23, 2008 23:48:54 GMT
I cant think of a way to get the guard on if the pommel is part of the blade either, other than forging it all as one piece like this. www.cashanwei.com/product_details.asp?id=SH2296But as I mentioned before, I handled this one...Im not sure how they made it one piece with a folded steel blade....I'd be curious to see a durability test done on it, but I dont think Id spend that kind of money on it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2008 2:51:44 GMT
Oh, great! I've wondered for a long time why full size swords were not forged in one piece of unstoppable steel... now between the TAC32 and this outrageous Viking sword, I'm going to be haunted for some time to come. ......................................... it's a darn good thing I'm broke!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2008 3:46:14 GMT
When fighting to the death you hit em with anything you can, as many times as you can till he drops,and if you break your toys then you take his,hee hee! But seriously, I prefer peened on a nice thick tang,I've seen screwed on pommels break or loosen and then comes some serious whining.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2008 5:32:33 GMT
Interesting thoughts guys. Maybe a pommel test just to see how much stress they can actually take? I'm just curious if pommel nuts would take damage, or if compressed grips are more prone to split from pommel impact, things of that nature.
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Post by ShooterMike on Dec 24, 2008 5:45:50 GMT
I think a lot of it would be how well the pieces are fit. I just got finished setting the shoulder on my VA Practical Arming sword about a half inch forward. That made everything fit much tighter, as I had to regrind the contours of the tang along most of its length and set the pommel stop forward. I intentionally ground it such that the grip had to be persuaded the last half inch. And the pommel and guard had to be forcefully hammered into place with a 3 lb shop hammer. It is now rock solid and I can cut with it without installing the pommel nut. The only purpose the nut has now is to keep it from vibrating loose.
When testing the assembly I made a number of test swings with just the guard and pommel in place, though the pommel wasn't hammered fully into place. It handled well and I would have no problem cutting with it minus the grip and the pommel nut.
I don't think a one-piece blade and pommel would offer a lot of improvement over this arrangement, in actual practice.
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