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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 19:05:19 GMT
ok well here we go: the Bujinkan federation teaches a mix of nine differnt martial arts some of which date back to Sengoku Jidai (hopefully I spelled that close to right)or the era of civil war before the Shogunate was established and settled things down some. ok so that places their teachings well into tradition and they teach a few techniques using a katana with the left hand or in an upside-down grip. these are not "use them all the time" normal practices but they have been in use for a long time so there is a basis to argue that a katana may be used in the left hand and still be used correctly to tradition. you just need to decide WHICH tradition to follow. I think there are lots of ways to respect a weapon and they don't require it to be used right handed. SAFETY POINT! if the guy is left handed and has no training cajoling him into using it right handed is possibly dangerous since he has less fine control that way. for casual cutting one should use the hand orientation they are most comfortable and have the best control with. safety first folks. That's kind of reaching Tom =). Also it's been pointed out before, in this thread, with the admission of 'almost all techniques'. Those guys STILL use a right hand grip...other than a few techniques designed to confuse the opponent. As far as the safety issues, you're right to an extent (and I do respect your dedication to safety...that can absolutely never be overstressed). However! I do believe I could go outside right now, with my beat up old PPK. and cut safely with my left hand leading. All you have to remember is to keep a good firm grip, and to lead with the correct foot. As a matter of fact I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't cut better lol, simply due to paying better attention to the mechanics. It's not like he's going to let go because he has the wrong hand forward (for him). Besides, the initial post was about bokken lol. Anyhow, I think this has been beat up enough. The guy can take a look at all of our arguments, and come to his own conclusions. If his initial comfort is more important to him than proper usage (traditionally), then he'll choose to have his left hand forward. If possible future training, and having to relearn all he's already worked to learn makes a bigger impression, he'll hold the sword properly (traditionally). I think we've pretty much covered all the arguments for and against, and other than one guy getting angry...had fun doing it =). Cris
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 23, 2008 4:29:21 GMT
yeah that's true enough and to be honest I think that if one is going to study the art they should do it as intended.
the safety thing comes out because I have a buddy with no formal training and no intent to get any and he's absolutely brutal on his blades. I keep telling him he needs to lighten up and not over power so much. anyway I think of what would happen if this guy suddenly felt like he HAD to swing off-handed. I would fear for his safety. I could go out and cut well with my left hand right now too. but there's a big difference between an experienced swordsman switching up and a guy who hasn't a clue and then uses his clumsy hand on top of it all. I just think it isn't wise to try and push the right handed thing on guys with no training or experience.
but I concede the point JSA should be done right handed, let's just not go too far with it ok?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 14:51:47 GMT
I am strongly left hand dominant, meaning that I cannot accomplish things that require fine motor skills with my right hand.
I do not have ANY formal sword training(therefore no opinion on this topic).
I did cut bottles with a Katana for the first time recently. I tried it with a "normal" grip and with a left hand grip. I find it to be more comfortable/familiar with my left hand close to the tsuba. What I think is interesting is that after cutting a dozen or so bottles (right handed)it was relatively easy to make multiple cuts in my second gallon bottle.
I did not have anything like this success with the western swords! I find it easier to hold westerns left handed and cross my body to make offside cuts(mirroring righty's). The same story for single hands and longswords. I suspect that the saber like balance and short blade length, combined with a 2 handed grip makes all the difference.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 23, 2008 15:23:33 GMT
this is very interesting Steve, thank you for your input. though you lack formal training you still have plenty of experience. I wonder how much your experience made a difference.
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Dec 23, 2008 15:54:57 GMT
I too am predominatly left handed. I have practiced both grips, and to be honest I'd rather hold it left handed. All tradition aside if I were to engage in an actual swordfight(highly unlikely) I would want every advantage. I have sparred with right handers countless times, and it always throws them off. Now, this will probaly ruffle some feathers, but I mean absolutly no disrespect.... The bottm line is that a sword is a simple machine, a hardened sharpened piece of steel produce through a scientific application. Its only purpose was to kill. Any reverence, mysticism, lore or awe we attach to these machines is merely superstition. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am no traditionlist, and If someone wants to hold a katana lefty, hey go for it. As far as whats been called the "right" way to hold a katana, that stance can recreated lefthanded as an exact mirror. I highly doubt that my opponent would, upon seeing me lefthanded, say " wait it minute, sir, youre holding that wrong, here let me show you". Just trying to defend all the lefthanders out there. As a side note, I do agree if a person IS interested in learning the traditional way, listen to your sensei.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 23, 2008 16:18:26 GMT
I too am predominatly left handed. I have practiced both grips, and to be honest I'd rather hold it left handed. All tradition aside if I were to engage in an actual swordfight(highly unlikely) I would want every advantage. I have sparred with right handers countless times, and it always throws them off. Now, this will probaly ruffle some feathers, but I mean absolutly no disrespect.... The bottm line is that a sword is a simple machine, a hardened sharpened piece of steel produce through a scientific application. Its only purpose was to kill. Any reverence, mysticism, lore or awe we attach to these machines is merely superstition. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am no traditionlist, and If someone wants to hold a katana lefty, hey go for it. As far as whats been called the "right" way to hold a katana, that stance can recreated lefthanded as an exact mirror. I highly doubt that my opponent would, upon seeing me lefthanded, say " wait it minute, sir, youre holding that wrong, here let me show you". Just trying to defend all the lefthanders out there. As a side note, I do agree if a person IS interested in learning the traditional way, listen to your sensei. I agree in principle with what you say...in principle... Certainly for the casual user it matters not how you grip or cut...if you are lefty...cut lefty...who cares.... But there is a proper way to hold a katana... Swords may be sharpened hunks of steel..but that is not nearly all they are... The Japanese sword evolved hand in hand, very precisely with Japanese Sword Arts for 1000 years... the two developed together to obtain and perfect optimum performance out of swordsmanship... Relentless pursuit of perfection of minute details is very much a Japanese cultural trait... I have seen JSA/ Aiki masters who could throw you head first, chest first , or hi first all by changinf a very subtle indectable motion of their hand on your hand....the only point of contact ws the hand... no difference could be told from the subtle movements , but the effects varied greatly... In such precise arts... the switch from Right hand dominance to left hand dominance has huge effects beyong just a mirror image....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 16:28:47 GMT
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. ^^^Very very very good advice.
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Dec 23, 2008 16:40:07 GMT
I have seen JSA/ Aiki masters who could throw you head first, chest first , or hi first all by changinf a very subtle indectable motion of their hand on your hand....the only point of contact ws the hand... no difference could be told from the subtle movements , but the effects varied greatly... In such precise arts... the switch from Right hand dominance to left hand dominance has huge effects beyong just a mirror image.... True, when you switch dominate hands your whole stance changes. I agree that theres more to it than just mirroring, however if by changing to left handed stance throws my opponent off so that my body is turned in such a way that his subtle attacks are hindered, all the more my advantage. Remember, leftys are forced to adapt to a right handed world. Almost all techniques are taught through right handed stances. Adaptation with a lefthanded stance gives a lefty the advantage. The vikings called it "being crafty" All in all I would still have my ass handed to me by a JSA master, no matter what hand I used!
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 23, 2008 16:48:00 GMT
I have seen JSA/ Aiki masters who could throw you head first, chest first , or hi first all by changinf a very subtle indectable motion of their hand on your hand....the only point of contact ws the hand... no difference could be told from the subtle movements , but the effects varied greatly... In such precise arts... the switch from Right hand dominance to left hand dominance has huge effects beyong just a mirror image.... True, when you switch dominate hands your whole stance changes. I agree that theres more to it than just mirroring, however if by changing to left handed stance throws my opponent off so that my body is turned in such a way that his subtle attacks are hindered, all the more my advantage. Remember, leftys are forced to adapt to a right handed world. Almost all techniques are taught through right handed stances. Adaptation with a lefthanded stance gives a lefty the advantage. The vikings called it "being crafty" All in all I would still have my ass handed to me by a JSA master, no matter what hand I used! Oh yeah..i'm not arguing with you there...and if you were untrained fighting someone trained, left handed would be a BIG advantage.... one that you would be remiss not to take advantage of... the point I'm getting at is JSA moves are so refined that I doubt they could be tought exactly the same cross handed... but again , unless you are trying to master a JSA this should hardly matter at all... i definitely wouldn't cut left-handed in my backyard because some art I didn't train in said it was the right way....
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slav
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Post by slav on Dec 23, 2008 16:52:02 GMT
Wow, how many times can we say the same thing a different way?
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 23, 2008 16:54:31 GMT
I also agree with this ...in principle. I always question authority....
But I add this caveat...
When traditions , trainings and systems of knowlege are passed down by experts... we must achieve an expert understanding of them before we can presume to accept or dismiss them. An incomplete understanding will never allow a man to judge wisely...
A little knowlege is a dangerous thing....
and Those who do not learn from history doom themselves to learning from mistakes....
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Dec 23, 2008 16:57:38 GMT
Wow, how many times can we say the same thing a different way? I think that about sums it up
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 23, 2008 16:58:12 GMT
Wow, how many times can we say the same thing a different way? Now Grasshopper , you begin to truly understand the ways of internet forums... when you can arrive at the truth in a thread with just one post, and not a series of redundacy from every freaking forum member...Then grasshopper, you will be ready....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 17:15:45 GMT
this is very interesting Steve, thank you for your input. though you lack formal training you still have plenty of experience. I wonder how much your experience made a difference. Tom My experience definitely helped in the "what to expect" area, for instance, practice with edge alignment certainly makes a difference. I normally have some difficulty transferring movements from left to right hand. With the westerns that remains true. I posted here because i was surprised that It was noticeably easier for me to switch grip positions with the Katana and that seemed relevant to the OP. I expected to be able to cut bottles with either hand, but not to make multiple cuts right handed. In lots of threads here and elsewhere people make a pretty big deal out of "correct" hand positioning. That got me interested enough to pay attention and try it out a little more than I might have otherwise. I think that, for me, If I take formal training it will not be a huge problem to train right handed. and that is surprising to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2009 18:43:27 GMT
Despite of the fact that your classmate wears and uses his katana lefty style (and surprisingly your sensei allows him to do so), a left handed style and grip is not taught within normal JSA. Therefore, technically there is no correct grip for a lefty but a right handed one. In JSA, traditionally, southpaws would just have to learn how to fight right handed. This is the truth of the matter, regarding JSA. From my understanding, even if someone was naturally left handed, they pretty much forced themselves to be right handed. It was a cultural thing back in the day, the left hand was used for things you don't want to touch other people/things with. (yuck) So if you didn't want to be looked down upon and shunned socially, you used things right handed. Really, you would think though, that if you trained left handed, when most other were right, you would have a good advantage. Much like a left handed batter. But oh well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 8:44:47 GMT
Having the element of surprise is always a bonus. I'm semi-ambidextrous so I'm a bit all over the place, really.
Write left-handed, bat right-handed, bowl/throw left-handed, hold a sword right-handed.
I play most racquet sports with either hand, it really puts a spin on my squash game, but the downside is that I sometimes end up overthinking and crash into the wall before I can decide which hand to play which shot with...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 8:45:23 GMT
Sorry for being off-topic, btw
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 9:05:51 GMT
Um, you are all over looking another crucial aspect in all of this. If you have a group of students lined up going through the cuts and you have someone in the group going in an opposite direction to the person next to them it is dangerous. Also, I am left handed but I use my katana the traditional way because that is what I was taught. If it is just fun cutting at home then fine let him use left but in a traditional dojo you should respect the traditions of the sensei and the dojo.
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