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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 7:53:51 GMT
Oh boy ...after i thought about what I'm asking i realize how glad i am that this is the friendly sword forum lol.
Question time.
Heat Tempered Or Folded Steel ?
i know that if a blade is heat tempered it means that the edge is harder than the back (and it has a real hamon x3 thats so purty) but i dont know too much about folded steel ... i know that its folded when its forged and it gives it a nice look but wouldn't flexibility and edge hardness be really important ? leading me to think that Heat Tempered swords are better ... but i hear that folded steel is awesome in some way. so whats the deal ? what exactly is better ? oh and is it possible to get a folded steel sword that was also heat tempered so it has a real hamon ? .... >.> with my luck and the lack of what i know about forging swords I'm going to find out that if a sword is folded it is always also heat tempered lol ... oh ..yeah. umm thats all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 8:43:27 GMT
A folded blade is also heat tempered!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 8:57:49 GMT
Folded steel has been rendered obsolete by modern designer steels.
In the old days, the steel was folded to spread any impurities out over the length of the blade.
This is how it was first explained to me: take a large lump of green clay, now stick a small lump of yellow clay to it. If you take your clay and start folding it, mixing it up, the yellow will blend and start disappearing. In the same way, a lump of impurities in the steel can be 'blended' in by folding it.
As far as tempering goes, any proper sword should be tempered. Tempering is a way of heating and cooling the steel in a controlled environment to make the molecules line up in a way that gives you a desired result. One of the reasons most wallhangers are wallhangers is that they aren't tempered.
What you're thinking of is called "differential tempering" (or differential hardening, the terms are used interchangeably.) That is where something like clay is caked on to the back of the blade (but not the edge) prior to tempering. The edge gets hotter and cools down quicker, making it harder than the back of the blade, this is where you get your pretty hamon lines from.
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 11, 2008 12:37:29 GMT
Differential hardening and differential tempering are not interchangable....
Hardening is heating and quenching... tempering is heating and slowly cooling...
Its not just semantics... they are different proccesses...
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 11, 2008 13:59:33 GMT
to expand on what Marc said: hardening makes a sword harder (go fig) and tempering makes it a little bit softer but removes stress and makes it tougher. traditionally japanese katana were folded for the reasons stated above, and they were differentially hardened with clay so that the edge is harder than the back. traditionally the Japanese did not temper their swords.
FOLDING: the folding process used today (in most cases) is not at all the same as the ancient smiths of japan did it. Some modern smiths do something very similar but in order to get that you'll be paying huge amounts of money. so what we end up with today in folded or "damascus" (don't get me started on this mis-nomer) blades is a simple pattern that often looks like wood grain. it is very pretty but serves no real function. folded blades can be differentially hardened but that often takes them above our $300 price range. Ryumon advertises that they fold and Differentially harden their swords, but you'd never know it by looking at them. see my Ryumon Zodiak review for more detail.
DIFFERENTIAL HARDENING: this means that clay is applied to the sword blade so that when it is hardened the edge will be harder than the spine. sometime called clay tempering or clay hardening or any other number of names that are not quite right to obviously wrong. how much clay and of what type varies from forge to forge but basically they put a lot of clay on the spine and very little to none on the edge then heat the blade to hardening temperature and then quench in water (usually). an interesting note here is that the blades tend to be straight before quenching and bent after. this how the traditional katana gets its curve, thought it can and was manipulated by bending it before quenching. modern forges tend to temper their swords to some degree after differentially harnening but the ancients did not usually do as I understand it. the benefit of this process is that your edge is harder and will hold a better, sharper edge longer but the back is soft and will absorb the shocks of use so the sword doesn't break easy like it would if the whole thing was as hard as the edge.
TEMPERING: after hardening the sword blade is heated up to a very specific temperature then cooled slowly. this softens it some but also makes it tougher and relieves stress. don't worry abot this you normally have no choice. just don't be confused by the many, many web sites that will talk about tempering like it is hardening. it isn't but if a sword is tempered it has been hardened. just don't buy in to tempering talk too much.
personally, in our price range, I steer clear of folding and go for differential hardening. that's just my personal preferences.
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 11, 2008 14:06:45 GMT
to expand on what Marc said: hardening makes a sword harder (go fig) and tempering makes it a little bit softer but removes stress and makes it tougher. traditionally japanese katana were folded for the reasons stated above, and they were differentially hardened with clay so that the edge is harder than the back. traditionally the Japanese did not temper their swords. FOLDING: the folding process used today (in most cases) is not at all the same as the ancient smiths of japan did it. Some modern smiths do something very similar but in order to get that you'll be paying huge amounts of money. so what we end up with today in folded or "damascus" (don't get me started on this mis-nomer) blades is a simple pattern that often looks like wood grain. it is very pretty but serves no real function. folded blades can be differentially hardened but that often takes them above our $300 price range. Ryumon advertises that they fold and Differentially harden their swords, but you'd never know it by looking at them. see my Ryumon Zodiak review for more detail. DIFFERENTIAL HARDENING: this means that clay is applied to the sword blade so that when it is hardened the edge will be harder than the spine. sometime called clay tempering or clay hardening or any other number of names that are not quite right to obviously wrong. how much clay and of what type varies from forge to forge but basically they put a lot of clay on the spine and very little to none on the edge then heat the blade to hardening temperature and then quench in water (usually). an interesting note here is that the blades tend to be straight before quenching and bent after. this how the traditional katana gets its curve, thought it can and was manipulated by bending it before quenching. modern forges tend to temper their swords to some degree after differentially harnening but the ancients did not usually do as I understand it. the benefit of this process is that your edge is harder and will hold a better, sharper edge longer but the back is soft and will absorb the shocks of use so the sword doesn't break easy like it would if the whole thing was as hard as the edge. TEMPERING: after hardening the sword blade is heated up to a very specific temperature then cooled slowly. this softens it some but also makes it tougher and relieves stress. don't worry abot this you normally have no choice. just don't be confused by the many, many web sites that will talk about tempering like it is hardening. it isn't but if a sword is tempered it has been hardened. just don't buy in to tempering talk too much. personally, in our price range, I steer clear of folding and go for differential hardening. that's just my personal preferences. +1 for the full explanation... I wasn't up to it this am
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 11, 2008 14:57:15 GMT
To cap that off. Normalising, Hardening (i.e. quenching - differential or through), & Tempering (single or multiple cycles): they all come under the umbrella of a process known as "Heat Treating".
It's this "Heat Treating" process that is so often mis-labelled 'tempering' throughout the industry that we've got no choice than to accept that people will just call Heat Treating "Tempering". It's not, but few care, so you just accept that's what they meant. Now you can join the club of those who know, but bite their tongue when industry 'professionals' say a sword is 'tempered'. They mean heat treated.
It's like calling a wheel a "tyre". It's not a tyre, it's a wheel. A wheel consists of a hub, spokes, rim, tube and tyre, but so many people call wheels "tyres" that you just accept it. Maybe a bad example but it's all I could think of in this am.
This is probably stickied somewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 17:48:03 GMT
HERE it is on this site. SFI also has some good stickies on this topic. Debbie
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 19:54:36 GMT
Wow. Thank you all for the info ^^ this helped alot, thanks again.
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