Katana vs. medieval/european, which do you prefer?
Dec 24, 2008 3:04:29 GMT
Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 24, 2008 3:04:29 GMT
Dec 24, 2008 2:35:27 GMT @canderson said:
Dec 4, 2008 8:17:43 GMT @jeff613 said:
I am going to have to go with Greco-Roman and western swords in general over the katana. Not that a katana is not an effective and deadly sword, but it is intended to be used with the kind of martial arts training that is both grueling and extensive. Since I do not have that kind of training, I feel to own one would be an insult to those who have taken the time and really "earned" the right to own such a sword. Western swords, I feel, required far less training, are meant to deal with body armor to some degree, and if need be, an untrained person could still be rather effective with one on the battlefield. I should mention that in some cases, the Japanese effectively employed samurai swords in WW II, showing that even in modern battles, the sword is still a capable weapon. The combat tomahawk is still being used in Trashcanistan too.
Toyama Ryu was designed to be used (quite effectively) within a few short months of training. That was also the style that was likely used by those WWII soldiers you mentioned if I recall correctly.
Perfecting it however, is a life's work.
Dec 7, 2008 4:24:07 GMT @korn said:
I think many are in love with katanas because they are 'always' something spiritual. Samurai sword training is part of something bigger i.e. spiritual training. So, profound intimacy exists between the sword and the man. Moreover, katanas are not just tools; they deserve respect. Many things we own are personalized, of course. But, if my car is my friend, your car may simply be regarded as a tool. That's not the case with katanas. I don't know but I feel that 'European' swords have less spiritual touch. I believe they carried more spiritual meaning but this is not as widely publicized.I think I can agree with this. Let me clarify.
As has been said, any moron with a katana is just that, a moron with a katana, same for western blades. However, in the popular media...we have MANY many many books, movies, tv programs, documentaries, and the like where a western longsword, bastard sword, short sword, 2h sword, whatever you like...is just a bar of sharpened steel used for killing someone else.
A tool.
Now, think of a book, movie, tv program, or documentary where a katana/japanese style blade is used. In almost none of them is there any question that the sword is anything less than a very important centerpiece to the plot, main character, or overall development of the story/history/etc. Even in the Last Samurai...where the katana was downplayed to an incredible level (which I thought was very cool)...its importance is STILL stressed via plot development. Even the end of the movie drives it home.
This is of course not a universal thing...but the traits are there and far more likely to be picked up on by the general public than the reverse.
Now am I saying that that is the way it was, and how we should all feel? HELL no lol. Just saying that that's how most people are going to feel about it as outsiders looking in. Most people don't connect the cruciform of a western longsword with the church and religion (even though there were whole militant orders founded with this as a center piece if i recall), but you can bet every single true knight throughout history did. The connection for modern society just isn't there. But everyone on the planet knows that the katana is the 'soul' of a samurai. That just naturally makes one look differently at each blade type...until research and opening your field of experience teaches you different.
For me...I can feel the connection to both. I somewhat prefer Japanese styled blades, simply because that's what I'm studying, and I have an immense respect for the intricacies and values of the religious/spiritual system that goes along with it. This does not change my feelings regarding standard accepted religion and/or my place in it...but Christianity certainly isn't very well represented by a western longsword now is it =).
However.
EVERY well crafted blade (that suits my aesthetic tastes of course!) speaks to me in its own way. My personal favorite blades combine aspects of both traditions. Differential hardening on a double edged blade is just one example (man...do I ever love the look of that lol). When I look at a blade that is hand crafted with skill and care...I see the steel, the fire, the water...the control...the vision, and the execution. The smith (and his intense concentration, and pouring out of self when making) and the warrior (with HIS intense concentration, and pouring out of self while using). In my case...these have come together in the same person (trust me, that's something you'd have to experience to know the feeling of). I see the deadly beauty...and in the end...a look at my own mortality. It really doesn't matter WHAT kind of blade it is in the end. They're all tools designed to facilitate one persons ability to end another person's life, open a gateway to the next world...meet ones maker...however you like to look at it.
When it comes down to it...that's a spiritual thing no matter how you choose to take it.
Cris
I think that we have lost touch of a lot of the spirituality and mysticism of European swords, because the tradition was broken... In Japan we have an unbroken sword heritage... but in the west swords and training in their use fell from favor...
But before that there were legends and myths of swords ...how about Hrunting? Excalibur? The Vorpal Blade that went snickety snack? What do we make of the legends of swords in bodys of water...and the real ones we find now , in the bogs and rivers?
Heres a couple of links to sword myths...the first from Ireland
www.luminarium.org/mythology/ireland/cormacsword.htm
This one from Hungary:
www.hunmagyar.org/mondak/sword.html
Below is an incomplete list of the swords tied into the spirituality and myths of the west.....
Nothung, the sword from Die Walküre (Wagnerian mythology), also known as Gram, or Balmung ) wielded by Siegfried
The Sword of Peleus, a magic sword that makes its wielder victorious in the battle or the hunt (Greek mythology)
The Sword of Death, A grey sword that can a kill a person if you just cut a lock of their hair off.(Greek Mythology)
Nagelring , the sword of Dietrich von Bern.
Zulfiqar is the name of the sword of Ali ibn Abu Talib, the son-in-law of Muhammad and the model for Islamic chivalry.
Swords from Celtic Mythology :
Caladbolg (also Caladcholg), the sword of Fergus mac Róich and powerful enough to cut the tops off three hills; related to the Caledfwlch of Welsh mythology
Caledfwlch Often compared to Excalibur (and might be an alternate name for it), this sword is used by Llenlleawg Wyddel to kill Diwrnach Wyddel and his men.
Claíomh Solais (The Sword of Light), the sword of Nuada, leader of the Tuatha de Danann
Fragarach (also The Sword of Air, The Answerer or The Retaliator), forged by the gods. No armor could stop it, and it would grant its wielder command over the powers of wind
Dyrnwyn aka The Sword of Rhydderch - "Rhydderch the generous." A flaming sword not unlike Excalibur in abilities. One of the Spoils of Annwyn.
The Singing Sword of Conaire Mór
Ysbaddadan's Javelins This Fomori owned a set of spears dipped in poisonous venom.
Swords from the Matter of Britain:
Clarent, the sword in the stone which Arthur pulled free to become King of Britain, not to be mistaken with Excalibur. Sometimes is said to have been the blade used by Mordred (Arthur's illegitimate son) to kill King Arthur.
Excalibur, the sword which King Arthur received from the Lady of the Lake
The Grail Sword, a cracked holy sword which Sir Percival bonded back together, though the crack remained could shoot the mythical green flame.
Crewennan, The dagger Arthur used. It was said to be able to able to summon creatures from the depths of hell.
Arondight, Lancelot's sword that could cut through stone and metal.
Galatine, Gawain's sword that could shoot the mythical black thunder.
The Oracle , a blade created from a lyre and the given the ability to grant the wielder full control of the mythical red ice.
Swords from Norse Mythology
Balmung/Gram, the sword that Odin struck into the Branstock tree which only Sigmund the Volsung was able to pull out. It broke in battle with Odin but was later reforged by Sigmund's son Sigurd/Siegfried and used it to slay the dragon Fafnir. After being reforged, it could cleave an anvil in half.
Dáinsleif is king Högni's sword, according to Snorri Sturluson's account of the battle known as the Hjaðningavíg.
Freyr's sword, Freyr's magic sword which fought on its own.
Tyrfing (also Tirfing or Tervingi), the cursed sword of Svafrlami, from the Elder Edda; also said to be the sword of Odin in Wagnerian mythology
Hofud, the sword of Heimdall, the guardian of Bifrost.
Skofnung, a sword with mythical properties associated with the legendary Danish king Hrólf Kraki.
Swords from the Matter of France
Almace, Almice or Almacia is the sword of Turpin, Archbishop of Reims.
Curtana, the magical sword of Ogier the Dane.
Durindana (also Durandal or Durendal), the sword of Roland (Orlando in medival Italian verse)
Hauteclere (also Halteclere), the sword of Olivier
Joyeuse, the sword of Charlemagne.
Swords from Spanish mythology
Tizona, the sword of El Cid, it frightens unworthy opponents, as shown in the heroic poem Cantar de mio Cid
Colada, the other sword of El Cid, as Tizona its power depends on the warrior that wields it.