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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 5:29:20 GMT
This Thanksgiving I got sempriniin' laughed at when I mentioned I had a "15th Century sword." Not because I owned a sword, but because "Swords weren't used in the 15th century. Guns were used instead. " This literally went on most of the night as I defended that swords were in fact used.. Can someone please clear this debate up for me.. I'm going out of my mind!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 5:50:34 GMT
Those people clearly don't know what they were talking about. I've only ever heard about lasers being used.
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Post by kidcasanova on Nov 28, 2008 5:51:23 GMT
You can sit comfortably knowing that swords were in fact used even up well into America's history, though later on firearms did become the predominant weapon of war. Matchlock's weren't even around until mid-way through the 15th century.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 5:55:21 GMT
Good grief, the last wartime use of swords in a major conflict that I know of was a naval boarding action in WW2! And that Mad Jack Churchill fellow had his Claymore out when he charged onto Normandy. Guns were hardly ready to take over the battlefield in the 15th century...
-Jonathan
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 5:57:11 GMT
And that Mad Jack Churchill fellow had his Claymore out when he charged onto Normandy. That is one BAMF.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 6:13:48 GMT
A picture is worth 1,000 words. Here are some 15th century paintings to back you up. www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=9902While guns were in existence since the 1300's, they were not of wide spread use, mainly because they were not very effective. I do not think they surpassed the bow and arrow in effectiveness until the 1850's. In the 15th century the gun ignited in your face when you fired them so you had to close your eyes. That means that you could not aim, only point. It was not until the mid 1800's with the expanding miniball and riffled barrels that guns surpass arrows in accuracy and distance. The benefit of guns was that it was easier to train people to use. Prior to the 1870's they were often used with bayonets like polearms or spears anyway.
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Post by rammstein on Nov 28, 2008 6:48:49 GMT
Only sortakinda...don't forget though, that guns were MUCH easier to train an average soldier to use and din't require the years of practice that bowmanship would.
Your family, sorry to say it, doesnt seem to know much about medieval history, Andx ;D
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Post by salvatore on Nov 28, 2008 7:19:40 GMT
Oh god, one of THOSE arguments. They were used, and they had a rather rich history.
Hell, even during the revolutionary war, soldiers on horse back used Halberds for awhile, though not used predominately, one can still argue that sabers were used on horse back as well.
Oh god, I can't believe someone would put up such a stupid argument...hell we STILL use Bayonets, though they may not be swords, they are still bladed weapons still being used by our military.
Some battles in the Civil war were fought near exclusively with sword bayonets (ammo reserves run pretty thin through combat)...some versions actually look like narrow swords attached to the end of your weapon, so making that argument is totally bogus...
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Post by tajima on Nov 28, 2008 7:52:49 GMT
Salvatore,
I have limited knowledge but I was somewhat sure that the Halberd was used on foot and the lance/spear was used on horseback. But I don't know, it just seems...strange. I thought Halberds were massive.
And I am quite sure sabers were used on horseback.
Thanks, -Tajima
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 8:17:59 GMT
Typical "lets get into a fight on the Holidays" comment! Now, if the guy has an Email, you will beable to inundate him with all the history of the 15th cen, to death! Next year, he wont go there, Might go some place where he thinks he can get ya again.....SanMarc.
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Post by salvatore on Nov 28, 2008 9:07:47 GMT
Salvatore, I have limited knowledge but I was somewhat sure that the Halberd was used on foot and the lance/spear was used on horseback. But I don't know, it just seems...strange. I thought Halberds were massive. And I am quite sure sabers were used on horseback. Thanks, -Tajima I've been told stories of soldiers using halberds on horse back as well, some were 48 inches and up, but the horse gave soldiers good reach. BUT, they stopped doing this very early because the blades got stuck in soldiers...oww. Some halberds are massive, but obviously they realized how ineffective it was because the blades getting stuck in...well, soldiers, so they stopped. This is one of the stories I was told when I was younger.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 12:42:02 GMT
I have a piece of advice fomr situations like this; never argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Don't bother with people like that, trying to educate them is a waste of your valuable time.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 28, 2008 13:01:28 GMT
BW, that answer is cantankerous and cynical; I agree with it completely.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 13:04:21 GMT
great minds think alike and fools seldom differ
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 13:28:06 GMT
This Thanksgiving I got [censored]in' laughed at when I mentioned I had a "15th Century sword." Not because I owned a sword, but because "Swords weren't used in the 15th century. Guns were used instead. " This literally went on most of the night as I defended that swords were in fact used.. Can someone please clear this debate up for me.. I'm going out of my mind! This is not a real brain twister... Swords are still made & used to this day by people, so as long as you weren't specific about whether it was used in battle or whatever, you can just say that. Even though history tells us that swords were used in battle in the 15th century, there's no need to argue that with people who would laugh at you. Especially when they obviously don't have a firm grasp on historical records themselves. But if you did need an example, to "shut them up"... You can refer to the fact that swords were used in battle in the 19th century. In the 40's, the Japanese soldiers who carried swords most certainly used them in combat, (even though the predominant weapon was the rifle)... Swords were still used, and killed many people. And i'm talking combat, leaving alone the instances when they were used to execute pow's.
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Post by alvin on Nov 28, 2008 14:28:03 GMT
I have a piece of advice fomr situations like this; never argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Don't bother with people like that, trying to educate them is a waste of your valuable time. To educate someone, one must first know something. That usually takes real experience - read not wikipedia experience. I agree with the above posts RE the use of swords in battle up to very recent times.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 15:10:07 GMT
Well I mean if you want some historical basis for 15th century swords get your hands on the 15th and 16th century longsword manuals or any one of a dozen different histories on swords will do you the same. Ignorant people who are ignorant for the sake of being ignorant should be left to their own devices. Swords have always been used and in some places are still being used today although most people probably wouldn't refer to many of the knives being used in active duty as swords, there are a few cases that I know of where the soldiers are carrying what amounts to a sword.
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Post by YlliwCir on Nov 28, 2008 16:01:24 GMT
I gotta agree with Wraith and Ian. Arguing with someone so obviously deluded only leaves me feeling frustrated and looking kinda silly. Sorta like those discussions with people who think swords weigh twenty pounds. I had a fellow who I knew to be otherwise intelligent tell me that the sword Arnie used in the Conan movie weighed seventy pounds. Seriously.
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Post by alvin on Nov 28, 2008 16:27:43 GMT
Knowledge without Experience is basically Faith. An idiot may not be ignorant and an ignorant person is not necessarily an idiot.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2008 17:03:21 GMT
I once walked in an antique shop, the antique dealer had a nice scimitar (authentic or victorian repro, I don't know) so I asked about it...the guy told me that it was a really old one but that swords we're always -throught all history, mind you- only symbolic and ceremonial things people carried around...and he was being serious. He added "you know, that weapon weights nearly two pounds: nobody's strong enough to wield that thing effectively..." And the guy is selling antiques for a living... I handled it and frankly, it handled well, good balance...I didn't buy it thought, didn't like the seller...
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