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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2024 22:23:27 GMT
Less Lethal Home Defense is how the Umarex C02 powered HDS68 .68cal sawed off double-barreled paintball launcher shotgun and the Umarex HDR68 .68cal 5 shot revolver paintball launcher are marketed. Bottom line versions are rated at 7 Joules of energy, that being the Legal Limit in the UK.
_____
Here in Missouri we say Pasha! Pasha, we say, and pimp them out to something around 40 Joules and more apt to stop someone who has worn out their welcome in your Castle. That would include green dot lasers and flashlight strobes, bump plates to rupture the C02 cartridge, hard rubber balls, nylon balls, aluminum alloy glassbreaker balls, shot loads that shatter on impact and disperse a load of BB, 20 shot ready reach mag and broad head darts for the coach gun and tuning barrel with extension for the HDR68. The stun gun is a Vipetek 600 Billion Volt with safety pin. The PIP illustrates what a quarter is in size comparison to the hole it makes in drywall, when it goes off accidentally.
But does it hurt? Let's see what a 196Joule HDR68 does when the Owner asked himself the same question...
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 14, 2024 12:26:32 GMT
Have one of those Walther/ Umarex pistols, but the special "magazine" I bought later with the button you hit on the bottom to charge it is broken and needs fixing. Also have a regular Paintball gun, I have solid plastic balls for both.
The real threat is if you run up against two legged varmints with REAL GUNS who might shoot back ( or worse shoot first). It's not like Firearms are a rarity in the USA, or many other places in the world.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 14, 2024 13:26:55 GMT
At 40J one needs to keep in mind that this barely can be counted as "less lethal". At that energy level and closer range it will be able to break the skull and kill.
Those 600 billion volt stun guns irk me. Those numbers get pulled straight out of warm, dark places, just isn't physically possible to get that high a voltage in that small a space. I would be wary of such electroshockers, they might not be as effective as a lower voltage one since it's not the voltage but how it is applied. The thing you need to look at is how much power it can deliver, a value given in Coulomb (Microcoulomb in that case, above 1µC is incapacitating, below 0,5µC only painful according to studies). I like the theory of inducing incapacitating convulsions on my enemy that don't get me into as much trouble as clubbing them over the head. But the drawback is it needs contact, if a probe misses for a Taser, bad luck, and with the shocker you need to be in close and have to have the chance to press it in securely for a time. The further apart the electrodes the bigger the impact, with the shockers close together prongs you can only get pain complience but not the incapacitation you get from a Taser. I am not that into these to be honest. Although they do make one hell of an intimidating sound.
Anyways be safe. Rant over.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 14, 2024 15:43:12 GMT
At 40J one needs to keep in mind that this barely can be counted as "less lethal". At that energy level and closer range it will be able to break the skull and kill. Those 600 billion volt stun guns irk me. Those numbers get pulled straight out of warm, dark places, just isn't physically possible to get that high a voltage in that small a space. I would be wary of such electroshockers, they might not be as effective as a lower voltage one since it's not the voltage but how it is applied. The thing you need to look at is how much power it can deliver, a value given in Coulomb (Microcoulomb in that case, above 1µC is incapacitating, below 0,5µC only painful according to studies). I like the theory of inducing incapacitating convulsions on my enemy that don't get me into as much trouble as clubbing them over the head. But the drawback is it needs contact, if a probe misses for a Taser, bad luck, and with the shocker you need to be in close and have to have the chance to press it in securely for a time. The further apart the electrodes the bigger the impact, with the shockers close together prongs you can only get pain complience but not the incapacitation you get from a Taser. I am not that into these to be honest. Although they do make one hell of an intimidating sound. Anyways be safe. Rant over. Looks like you have to add weight and spring power ( for compression?) to get to that ( claimed) level:
And there are 2 models of Double barrel "Shotgun", one about 16 Joules is claimed (* the other is about 7 Joules ) :
But it does come with sabot style steel balls! Now those out to hurt.
I'm feeling kind of silly I bought the auto pistol copy years ago at only 4 to 5 Joules. ![:-/](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) I did not do my homework on that purchase, and could not get a real gun over here at that time.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 14, 2024 16:02:48 GMT
They are CO2 powered, so you only need a new valve that lets more gas through. That's how many get around maximum Joule laws, buy a 7J gun, put in a 16J valve. I think it's not all models that can be modded this way, and the 40J you only get with the right ammo as well (I think skirted steel balls and you need to exchange some parts like O-rings for more durable parts, but the 16J only needs a valve). Some models you could just take a drill to the valve and widen the hole. AFIAK the 40J is the maximum you could do with CO2 cartridges, and most of the time something like 20-30J is more what you get, still pretty devastating. I am not sure though if all of the HDS/HDR models can be modded or if some are just locked now.
EDIT: Also, more power = less shots, a lot less if you go full throttle. AFIAK you already get only like 10 good shots with a 12g cartridge from the 16J version. Just looked, the HDX goes from 20shots@16J to 12 shots@24J with 2x12g as power source, so I'd imgine double the energy half the shots.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 14, 2024 17:47:57 GMT
They are CO2 powered, so you only need a new valve that lets more gas through. That's how many get around maximum Joule laws, buy a 7J gun, put in a 16J valve. I think it's not all models that can be modded this way, and the 40J you only get with the right ammo as well (I think skirted steel balls and you need to exchange some parts like O-rings for more durable parts, but the 16J only needs a valve). Some models you could just take a drill to the valve and widen the hole. AFIAK the 40J is the maximum you could do with CO2 cartridges, and most of the time something like 20-30J is more what you get, still pretty devastating. I am not sure though if all of the HDS/HDR models can be modded or if some are just locked now.
EDIT: Also, more power = less shots, a lot less if you go full throttle. AFIAK you already get only like 10 good shots with a 12g cartridge from the 16J version. Just looked, the HDX goes from 20shots@16J to 12 shots@24J with 2x12g as power source, so I'd imgine double the energy half the shots.
New valve, makes sense, Thank you / Danke for the explanation.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 15, 2024 11:59:59 GMT
I have been thinking, do you think making the gun more powerful will reduce lifespan? I mean most of it is plastic and aluminium, right?
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 15, 2024 15:31:56 GMT
I have been thinking, do you think making the gun more powerful will reduce lifespan? I mean most of it is plastic and aluminium, right? I am not the best person to answer that... but keeping it general, any thing that has moving parts gets a bit more wear when there is more force....so long as the ones who engineered it say it's fine, it most likely is.
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tera
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Post by tera on Jul 15, 2024 19:13:57 GMT
Just pointing out that buying a "less-lethal" tool, then altering that tool to increase its energy output, is probably something you should consult legal counsel about if you intended to use it for self-defense. Especially if it is altered such that its configuration would not be legal to sell in the first place.
It's like select fire switches on Glocks. Yes, you can make them, but unless you have a Class II Manufacturer's license it is illegal to do so and actually using an illegal one for home defense would land you about 60 years, minimum, without any other charges considered.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 15, 2024 19:19:44 GMT
That's true, I have heard people in germany just put in the valve when they shoot and place the 7J one back in after, the bored out valve itself isn't anything special.
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 16, 2024 0:31:57 GMT
Hi,
Why? I already have a fine jo-stick in the form of a cane if I decide to just thoroughly beat someone's posterior. My current buying decision involves mulling the ballistic pros and cons of adding a 10mm top end for my 1911, over continuing to fit up its longer barrel at night. How well will a CO2 gun neutralize a bear at your door or a gator on your porch deck refusing to piss off? I don't consider these things as useful, in my situation.
Best regards,
Standing My Ground in Florida
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 16, 2024 14:08:37 GMT
Hi,
Why? I already have a fine jo-stick in the form of a cane if I decide to just thoroughly beat someone's posterior. My current buying decision involves mulling the ballistic pros and cons of adding a 10mm top end for my 1911, over continuing to fit up its longer barrel at night. How well will a CO2 gun neutralize a bear at your door or a gator on your porch deck refusing to piss off? I don't consider these things as useful, in my situation.
Best regards,
Standing My Ground in Florida
Humans can take much less punishment than gators and bear. According to studies in Alaska, firearms were 85% and bear sprays like 90% effective to abort the attack, if outside this will always be my first line. Inside though is another thing completely. These Capsaicine sprays and pellets for the CO2 guns stick around, for a few days if well ventillated (I think the powder and mist spray are worse than the gels since they will settle everywhere around the room. It will be this for days when you touch something.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2024 17:31:51 GMT
Have one of those Walther/ Umarex pistols, but the special "magazine" I bought later with the button you hit on the bottom to charge it is broken and needs fixing. Also have a regular Paintball gun, I have solid plastic balls for both. The real threat is if you run up against two legged varmints with REAL GUNS who might shoot back ( or worse shoot first). It's not like Firearms are a rarity in the USA, or many other places in the world. I've already dealt with pretty much the same situation already.A guy who lived in the Complex was over to my apartment and I told him if he did anything to hurt my cat he would never make it out alive, and threw in that I'd shoot him with the paintball launcher shotgun...He reached in his waistband and pulls out a Glock, points it at the wall in front of him and said that would be like bringing a "placebo" gun to a gunfight. I explained it was for home protection and if we were in a gunfight I would have already had his. That hurt my feelings a bit but knew he would regret saying it later. Later that evening he was back over here and I asked to see his Glock, to which he replied he didn't have it on him. I waited about 20 minutes and exclaimed "OH, you don't have your Glock, huh?", whipped out the shotgun which was laying beside me and painted his head with the laser. After watching him sweat, and he was wincing, I opened it up, looked at him through the empty barrels and informed him that was the placebo effect he just experienced.He was more afraid of my hickory cane than anything and when he was holding the Kingfisher Yagyu bokken we squared off and I showed him I was faster than I looked. Much faster than he thought. ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2024 18:46:45 GMT
At 40J one needs to keep in mind that this barely can be counted as "less lethal". At that energy level and closer range it will be able to break the skull and kill. Those 600 billion volt stun guns irk me. Those numbers get pulled straight out of warm, dark places, just isn't physically possible to get that high a voltage in that small a space. I would be wary of such electroshockers, they might not be as effective as a lower voltage one since it's not the voltage but how it is applied. The thing you need to look at is how much power it can deliver, a value given in Coulomb (Microcoulomb in that case, above 1µC is incapacitating, below 0,5µC only painful according to studies). I like the theory of inducing incapacitating convulsions on my enemy that don't get me into as much trouble as clubbing them over the head. But the drawback is it needs contact, if a probe misses for a Taser, bad luck, and with the shocker you need to be in close and have to have the chance to press it in securely for a time. The further apart the electrodes the bigger the impact, with the shockers close together prongs you can only get pain complience but not the incapacitation you get from a Taser. I am not that into these to be honest. Although they do make one hell of an intimidating sound. Anyways be safe. Rant over. Looks like you have to add weight and spring power ( for compression?) to get to that ( claimed) level:
And there are 2 models of Double barrel "Shotgun", one about 16 Joules is claimed (* the other is about 7 Joules ) :
But it does come with sabot style steel balls! Now those out to hurt.
I'm feeling kind of silly I bought the auto pistol copy years ago at only 4 to 5 Joules. ![:-/](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) I did not do my homework on that purchase, and could not get a real gun over here at that time. _
They are the same shotgun, only one has already been modded a little to get 16 Joules. BudK.com only sells the 7 Joule model, I got the 16 Joule version off ebay. The revolver was 7 Joules when I got it but I've put every mod offered into making it powerful as I could get it. If I had it to do over I would have passed on the revolver and just got the shotgun. It is much more well made, has more metal and looks more like a real shotgun. It's heavy enough you could beat someone with it. _
Yes, you would be in trouble if you shot someone with it and they had to go to the Hospital. Probably not as much as if you shot them with a 12 gauge, .45, etc. but one of the aluminum alloy balls or that BB loaes to the head might possibly kill someone, You can see what a rubber ball did to drywall in the PIP of the pistol. _
If someone was in my home I would go for a striking weapon first, (21 inch UZI baton, Kingfisher Yagyu bokken, steel rod knife sharpener, etc) ibefore anything. . _
As for stun guns, the neck is the most effective place from what I hear, never having used one on anyone. Yes, you have to touch someone with it but no closer than you would have to be with a knife. It takes time to get one out, too, so unless you've already got it in your hand you're not going to get the chance to use it in a real one-on-one situation.
_
I don't carry one all the time but am not afraid to get up close and personal with someone..I do, however, wear fingerless SAP gloves with 8 oz steel shot in each every time I leave my apartment and have at least one OFT Italian switchblade on me. If I think I might actually have top defend myself I carry my 37 inch hickory cane, am quite comfortable with it and would not hesitate to break every joint in the body from the ankles up if it ever comes down to it
_
So far it has not and just having it in my hands has been enough to make the difference in not having to fight when a group of 5 young hood lion were waiting for me outside. _ "Why? I already have a fine jo-stick in the form of a cane if I decide to just thoroughly beat someone's posterior. My current buying decision involves mulling the ballistic pros and cons of adding a 10mm top end for my 1911, over continuing to fit up its longer barrel at nightHow well will a CO2 gun neutralize a bear at your door or a gator on your porch deck refusing to piss off? I don't consider these things as useful, in my situation.
Best regards,
Standing My Ground in Florida" _
We don't have bears. We have 20 something hood lions and 67 year old Shotokan Tigers. Here in St. Louis, MO, most dangerous city in the United States 4 years running, Public Housing, where I have stood my ground the last 17 years. _
Here's my hickory cane and I would be more comfortable using it to defend myself than anything, even the Kingfisher Yagyu bokken because it is so light.And it wouldn't be their behind I went for, it would be the joints ankle up ._
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 16, 2024 21:51:43 GMT
Looks like you have to add weight and spring power ( for compression?) to get to that ( claimed) level:
And there are 2 models of Double barrel "Shotgun", one about 16 Joules is claimed (* the other is about 7 Joules ) :
But it does come with sabot style steel balls! Now those out to hurt.
I'm feeling kind of silly I bought the auto pistol copy years ago at only 4 to 5 Joules. ![:-/](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) I did not do my homework on that purchase, and could not get a real gun over here at that time. _
They are the same shotgun, only one has already been modded a little to get 16 Joules. BudK.com only sells the 7 Joule model, I got the 16 Joule version off ebay. The revolver was 7 Joules when I got it but I've put every mod offered into making it powerful as I could get it. If I had it to do over I would have passed on the revolver and just got the shotgun. It is much more well made, has more metal and looks more like a real shotgun. It's heavy enough you could beat someone with it. _
Yes, you would be in trouble if you shot someone with it and they had to go to the Hospital. Probably not as much as if you shot them with a 12 gauge, .45, etc. but one of the aluminum alloy balls or that BB loaes to the head might possibly kill someone, You can see what a rubber ball did to drywall in the PIP of the pistol. _
If someone was in my home I would go for a striking weapon first, (21 inch UZI baton, Kingfisher Yagyu bokken, steel rod knife sharpener, etc) ibefore anything. . _
As for stun guns, the neck is the most effective place from what I hear, never having used one on anyone. Yes, you have to touch someone with it but no closer than you would have to be with a knife. It takes time to get one out, too, so unless you've already got it in your hand you're not going to get the chance to use it in a real one-on-one situation.
_
I don't carry one all the time but am not afraid to get up close and personal with someone..I do, however, wear fingerless SAP gloves with 8 oz steel shot in each every time I leave my apartment and have at least one OFT Italian switchblade on me. If I think I might actually have top defend myself I carry my 37 inch hickory cane, am quite comfortable with it and would not hesitate to break every joint in the body from the ankles up if it ever comes down to it
_
So far it has not and just having it in my hands has been enough to make the difference in not having to fight when a group of 5 young hood lion were waiting for me outside. _ "Why? I already have a fine jo-stick in the form of a cane if I decide to just thoroughly beat someone's posterior. My current buying decision involves mulling the ballistic pros and cons of adding a 10mm top end for my 1911, over continuing to fit up its longer barrel at nightHow well will a CO2 gun neutralize a bear at your door or a gator on your porch deck refusing to piss off? I don't consider these things as useful, in my situation.
Best regards,
Standing My Ground in Florida" _
We don't have bears. We have 20 something hood lions and 67 year old Shotokan Tigers. Here in St. Louis, MO, most dangerous city in the United States 4 years running, Public Housing, where I have stood my ground the last 17 years. _
Here's my hickory cane and I would be more comfortable using it to defend myself than anything, even the Kingfisher Yagyu bokken because it is so light.And it wouldn't be their behind I went for, it would be the joints ankle up ._
OK. For a situation like yours, a high-powered paintball-type weapon firing steel balls or something could be a valid choice.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 17, 2024 15:59:07 GMT
Have one of those Walther/ Umarex pistols, but the special "magazine" I bought later with the button you hit on the bottom to charge it is broken and needs fixing. Also have a regular Paintball gun, I have solid plastic balls for both. The real threat is if you run up against two legged varmints with REAL GUNS who might shoot back ( or worse shoot first). It's not like Firearms are a rarity in the USA, or many other places in the world. I've already dealt with pretty much the same situation already.A guy who lived in the Complex was over to my apartment and I told him if he did anything to hurt my cat he would never make it out alive, and threw in that I'd shoot him with the paintball launcher shotgun...He reached in his waistband and pulls out a Glock, points it at the wall in front of him and said that would be like bringing a "placebo" gun to a gunfight. I explained it was for home protection and if we were in a gunfight I would have already had his. That hurt my feelings a bit but knew he would regret saying it later. Later that evening he was back over here and I asked to see his Glock, to which he replied he didn't have it on him. I waited about 20 minutes and exclaimed "OH, you don't have your Glock, huh?", whipped out the shotgun which was laying beside me and painted his head with the laser. After watching him sweat, and he was wincing, I opened it up, looked at him through the empty barrels and informed him that was the placebo effect he just experienced.He was more afraid of my hickory cane than anything and when he was holding the Kingfisher Yagyu bokken we squared off and I showed him I was faster than I looked. Much faster than he thought. ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) When people shoot at you, if you have something to shoot back with, you will, and if you don't you will wish you did.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2024 9:46:02 GMT
When people shoot at you, if you have something to shoot back with, you will, and if you don't you will wish you did.
If somebody pulls a gun on me it's going to piss me off in a big way and I've had a gun pulled on me twice from a distance. I went off and tried to make them shoot me. Neither did, looked like they were shocked and put it away.
I've slapped a switchblade out of a persons hand and grabbed the wrist of someone whipping around a butterfly knife, reached behind his head, took the knife and held it to his throat. Then gave them both back to the person because I knew them both and it was more play than anything.
I have never taken a gun from anyone but given the chance, they better shoot me before I get within arms reach because I'll give it a shot if they don't and probably kill the person. I don't lay down for anybody.
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Post by Curtis_Louis on Jul 19, 2024 23:11:42 GMT
When people shoot at you, if you have something to shoot back with, you will, and if you don't you will wish you did.
If somebody pulls a gun on me it's going to piss me off in a big way and I've had a gun pulled on me twice from a distance. I went off and tried to make them shoot me. Neither did, looked like they were shocked and put it away.
I've slapped a switchblade out of a persons hand and grabbed the wrist of someone whipping around a butterfly knife, reached behind his head, took the knife and held it to his throat. Then gave them both back to the person because I knew them both and it was more play than anything.
I have never taken a gun from anyone but given the chance, they better shoot me before I get within arms reach because I'll give it a shot if they don't and probably kill the person. I don't lay down for anybody.
![isthatyoujohnwayne.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/HOIIKMdpQyokvEJqwSYX.png)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2024 15:41:13 GMT
Is that a real eye-patch or is that a Sears Eye-patch?
Hmmm... No Fooling...
Checkout Starcrawler's version of "If you're gonna be stupid you gotta be tough". ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 20, 2024 17:37:37 GMT
When people shoot at you, if you have something to shoot back with, you will, and if you don't you will wish you did.
If somebody pulls a gun on me it's going to piss me off in a big way and I've had a gun pulled on me twice from a distance. I went off and tried to make them shoot me. Neither did, looked like they were shocked and put it away.
I've slapped a switchblade out of a persons hand and grabbed the wrist of someone whipping around a butterfly knife, reached behind his head, took the knife and held it to his throat. Then gave them both back to the person because I knew them both and it was more play than anything.
I have never taken a gun from anyone but given the chance, they better shoot me before I get within arms reach because I'll give it a shot if they don't and probably kill the person. I don't lay down for anybody.
Wishing you continued Good Luck with the Cockerels in your neighborhood.
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