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Post by eastman on Apr 15, 2024 18:18:10 GMT
I'm nor familiar with a "foaming" guerrilla glue product. Any chance you could drop a link to the version you've used? UPDATE: According to the tracking info, the tsuka are due to arrive today. As they were originally "guaranteed" by yesterday, Ali-Express sent me a $1 coupon for my inconvenience (which was none at all). If they show up today I'll be shocked. Fast work, and fast shipping from China. I thought this would take 3 months. Of course, there is the saying, "Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick two." Looks like this is fast and cheap, so... we'll see. 🤷‍♂️
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Post by larason2 on Apr 15, 2024 18:21:10 GMT
The original gorilla glue is just urethane glue. It has its pros and cons, just like any other. Urethane glue needs both water and pressure to polymerize, and the bubbles are the glue polymerizing. When it cures, it has a rubbery consistency that is good for some applications (bad for others!). I use it from time to time, say to glue rubber to wood (as in a rubber stamp, for instance). If you don't have just the right amount of water and glue it can totally fail. If it bubbles up too much, it can also cure as a foam of bubbles and have super weak adhesion. It works great in very wet environments, because water catalyzes the formation. So, for instance, great for putting patches on punctured air mattresses (sealed with some cotton soaked in urethane glue). Gorilla (original) is just the most available brand. When I've used it, I usually find it fails if not clamped, so I would wrap the tsuka just in case. It's also not very reversible (though can be chipped off if necessary as stated, and it also sands off well). So that's one option, haven't tried it for this, but it sounds like a good idea to try. Used to be a very popular glue before super glue became popular.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Apr 15, 2024 19:48:15 GMT
Gorilla glue, original, is as larason2 says. It’s mainly for outdoor usage as it has moisture resistant quantities once cured. Because it foams it absolutely has to be clamped or the foaming action will separate the pieces being glued. Have never used it with water. Actually haven’t used it that often. Being a handyman I use yellow carpenters glue mostly which is still the best glue for wood to wood.
Am looking forward to your review tera. I’m one of those bargain people you spoke of.
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Post by madirish on Apr 15, 2024 22:49:10 GMT
Do not use Gorilla WOOD GLUE, the PVA glue, it can cause rust like Titebond II and III.....The Gorilla original urethane glue is a different animal as described above.
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tera
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Post by tera on Apr 16, 2024 7:20:12 GMT
Many thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll look into original Gorilla Glue if/when I install these. UPDATE: You've got mail. Below are links to a lot of comparison photos I took and my initial impressions. (Work in progress) First off, I should say the buying experience was exceptional. Communication was better than any vendor in recent history. They investigated and resolved the Customs issue in a timely manner. I've never been able to live-chat with someone about my order, at any phase of the order, before. Customer Service: 10/10 Despite being held up in Chinese customs for about 3 days, they only arrived one day after the guaranteed delivery date. They came responsibly packaged in hand-carved styrofoam where both tsuka were protected by shrink-wrap and two pieces of bamboo to use for mekugi were included. If you look for the photos of the yellow exterior, you can see where the package appears to have been cut open on one side amd re-taped shut (thoroughly). Customs inspection I presume. Shipping/packaging experience: 9/10 Initial impression? Slight disappointment. The ito color differs from what I saw pictured online. It is more like the common wine purple you see rather than a deep indigo (under some indoor lighting). The color was very important to me and I only gave this a go because this vendor was the ONLY on that seemed to have it. Different lighting affects materials and I believe I'm in error for expecting anything different. EDIT: Updated to reflect the color is fine. It looks more deep-purple in natural light. Not as nice as the inspirational ito Cottontail Customs used, but it works. I wrote my initial review at 2am. Looks more maroon in yellow, interior lighting, hence my confusion. Accurate Representation of product on website: 7/10 On to some substance, though. General shape and workmanship, surprisingly not awful. The overall shape strongly resembles the Munetoshi Viper's tsuka. Slight waisting from the fuchi, with a small curvature. This is consistent with both tsuka I ordered. The ito is as tight as the Munetoshi, more tight than my Musashi Bamboo and Ronin Katana Tanto, but less tight than my Paul Chen/Hanwei Iaito. To be fair, the Paul Chen has leather ito. Still, after 20 years of use the leather is tighter than any of these new acquisitions. Note: the ito does not alternate in the wrap, which isn't good. But, neither did it do so in the product photo. If I wanted anything different, I should have communicated that with my other specs. That's mea culpa. The complete, wrapped tsuka is about the same thickness front-to-back as my Munetoshi, but thinner than the Paul chen. Width-wise, it is slimmer than the Musashi Bamboo, but a little fatter than everything else. This is more apparent to the eye than the hand because of how thick the menuki are. In the hand, it fits me very comfortably. General workmanship: 7/10About the tsukamaki. As I said, it does NOT alternate (but not did it in the marketing photo). No hishigami, obviously. On one tsuka one of the vajra menuki is slighly not straight. My Paul Chen has the same problem on one side, so 🤷‍♂️. The other tsuka I ordered has very straight menuki. The diamonds are regular, more so than some of the rewraps I've seen done, and at no point do I see any exposed wood (which may be an issue, discussed later). The end knots are as flat as the Munetoshi, flatter than the Ronin Katana, and WAY flatter than the Musashi. The Paul Chen, of course, is best among them. The ito is synthetic but feels good in the hand. The lines on the outside edges of the tsuka are smooth with no gaps. There is no frayed material or pick marks. I can find no fault in the material. Honestly surprised by this. Tsukamaki: 8/10 (would be lower for not alternating, but that's on me. As it is, I'm surprised how well done it is). The alloy fittings are... obviously allow fittings. The bat set looks pretty decent overall. What should look gold does, what shouldn't doesn't. The more plain set shows some imperfections more easily, but to notice them you'd have to be handling it. So, from an observer's perspective in iai kata or as a walhanger, it's fine. The vajra menuki are kind of sexy, though. They are better formed than I anticipated and much more 3D. This is almost a problem, as a flatter, lower quality looking set might have reduced grip thickness. The fittings look way better than what came on the Musashi, marginally nicer than the Munetoshi, and inferior to the Paul Chen (noticing a trend?). First big issue. The two different fuchi have very different dimensions at the mouth. The Bat set almost look like they were made for rat tail tangs or tanto. I can fix this with filing, it was just odd... Another materials issue. I am not 100% convinced the same is real, as promised. It's the middle of the night now, but tomorrow I will try a hot pin test. If fake, this would lead me to give an F rating no matter how decent they seem to be otherwise. Withholding judgement until I test the material. I wish I could speak to the quality of the wood, but too little is visible. Given this is the most important component, that means take this whole review with a grain of salt. Materials: TBD SUMMARY: I received 2 tsuka, made with my choice of ito, fuchi, kashira, and same color for under $60 US shipped in less than a month. Both feel solid and if they came on a sword I purchased for under $400, I'd have been quite happy. I will absolutely replace my Musashi's tsuka with one of these. I am on the fence about replacing the Munetoshi's (my original intent). The ito color differed from what was pictured/expected and I don't know how well non-alternating ito wrap will hold up to use. Did I get my Money's worth? I think so. Ordering just these fittings from Amazon or other vendors would have cost as much. Is this a replacement for a rewrap by a craftsman? NO, not even close. DO THAT if a quality craftsman is available and you can afford it. However, if you want to upgrade an entry level sword you are fond of, or your tsuka/tsukamaki is already shot, I've seen worse work put out by known production sword manufacturers. These aren't perfect, but they surprisingly aren't trash, either. I think they deliver good value for the price point. Just keep in mind that price point is less than fast food for two in many places in the US. Overall opinion on value: 7/10 *The same passed the nor needle test and looks real to members who would know better than I.
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Post by Arlequin on Apr 16, 2024 8:43:21 GMT
Good review, overall they look solid for 30 bucks, if I still had my old beaters id definitely consider them, unfortunately I'm at stage in my life were they next swords I buy will be high end and will probably have custom made Tsuka lol. Also I feel your pain on ito, I too have tried to hunt down a specific shade of purple that seemed to not be produced anymore for awhile.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 16, 2024 9:25:20 GMT
Good luck!
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Post by wildv on Apr 16, 2024 11:14:14 GMT
That ito looks really nice! Near perfect diamonds!
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tera
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Post by tera on Apr 16, 2024 11:18:08 GMT
Yeah, they are what they are, but surprisingly not trash. It was a proof of concept. Entry level tsuka (that may require permanent bonding for safety) CAN be had for around $30 US. These seem comparable to sub-$400 sword koshirae, especially dropdown stores, but are in no way a substitute for quality work by professionals. UPDATE: So I heated a needle with a match until I could barely hold it and tried to stab it into the same. No give, so I even wiggled it a little. Not even a puncture mark. That "seems" to indicate real same. Honestly, it just looks too perfectly black and glossy to be real to me. Also, see the picture below where it looks like they beveled it to fit under the more obviously painted alloy fuchi. Is that result possible with real same?
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 16, 2024 14:28:05 GMT
Yeah, they are what they are, but surprisingly not trash. It was a proof of concept. Entry level tsuka (that may require permanent bonding for safety) CAN be had for around $30 US. These seem comparable to sub-$400 sword koshirae, especially dropdown stores, but are in no way a substitute for quality work by professionals. UPDATE: So I heated a needle with a match until I could barely hold it and tried to stab it into the same. No give, so I even wiggled it a little. Not even a puncture mark. That "seems" to indicate real same. Honestly, it just looks too perfectly black and glossy to be real to me. Also, see the picture below where it looks like they beveled it to fit under the more obviously painted alloy fuchi. Is that result possible with real same? Yes, that’s actually a sign it is genuine. The truth is well made fake samegawa can be more expensive than the lower quality genuine. Nice review with lots of details. The real and final test to its overall quality will be use. I’m looking forward to the follow up 🙂 Edit: I’d have to look more closely but the irregularity of the node tops makes me think it’s raw rather than tanned, which usually has much more rounded nodes. Second edit, lol. I’m sure it’s genuine and raw since I now looked at the other pics more closely and I can clearly see the tops of most nodules have been sanded flat, a definite sign. Definitely not high grade but it’s real.
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tera
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Post by tera on Apr 16, 2024 16:02:14 GMT
I sincerely appreciate you chiming in on this threat, Cottontail. Your input to see if this is safely viable is much appreciated.
EDIT: At this point, I'm pretty happy with the "value" of this product, where value is a comparison of features and quality gained at a given price point.
I've asked the seller if they would mind my sharing that they do custom tsuka. I thought this would be polite, as after dealing with me, they may never take another custom order again!
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 16, 2024 16:47:33 GMT
I sincerely appreciate you chiming in on this threat, Cottontail. Your input to see if this is safely viable is much appreciated. EDIT: At this point, I'm pretty happy with the "value" of this product, where value is a comparison of features and quality gained at a given price point. I've asked the seller if they would mind my sharing that they do custom tsuka. I thought this would be polite, as after dealing with me, they may never take another custom order again! Thanks for the outstanding review. It's good to know that Ali can be an acceptible alternative koshirae source.
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Post by LeFaust on Apr 16, 2024 17:25:19 GMT
Great review! Hope you don't have too much trouble fitting it to your swords. Thanks for being the guinea pig haha.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 16, 2024 17:29:02 GMT
If they went through the trouble of using real rayskin, I doubt there will be problems with the wood (like discussed in the other thread). Unless they cheaped out on the cheapest part..
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tera
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Post by tera on Apr 16, 2024 17:29:32 GMT
As far as I can tell, the koshirae you find there is the same as you see on many sword brands with longquan origins. Everything I've seen as an option for a dropdown seller, I've found there. This seller may actually do outsourced work for a forge for all I know (I didn't ask, as they probably couldn't tell me).
The pricing is better on Ali-Express than Amazon, etc., probably because you're cutting out a middleman or two.
Also, this is just one transaction with one seller. Always feel things out on your own, especially if asking for custom work. I legitimately thought I might get a bag of sawdust in the mail, if that puts my overall positive take in perspective.
Edit: Trying to examine the interior with the benefit of daylight, I see no cracks in the wood. I do see the nakago channel is a uniform shape and runs almost all the way down the tsuka. At this point I don't trust just two mekugi (even delrin ones) to keep it safe. I will be filling it, likely with Gorilla Glue original, as others have suggested, because I like the sound of it having a somewhat rubber final state. Filling the gap with a firm, form-fit shock absorbing material makes arm-chairn engineering sense.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 16, 2024 18:04:16 GMT
The expanding Gorilla Glue is a polyurethane glue, you can get other brands as construction glue, with softer and harder results, also much cheaper and in bigger batches. If there is too much space, a stiffer glue or some shimming would be better.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 16, 2024 20:57:02 GMT
If they went through the trouble of using real rayskin, I doubt there will be problems with the wood (like discussed in the other thread). Unless they cheaped out on the cheapest part.. Bad assumption. All of the production tsuka I worked on that had cracks, splits and poor quality wood had real samegawa, and I’ve worked on LOTS of those. As I mentioned above, it’s often cheaper to use low grade real samegawa than it is molded plastic versions. not meant to be a harsh statement, btw, it's hard to read tone in a written post and didn't want you to think I was biting your head off
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 16, 2024 21:01:15 GMT
As far as I can tell, the koshirae you find there is the same as you see on many sword brands with longquan origins. Everything I've seen as an option for a dropdown seller, I've found there. This seller may actually do outsourced work for a forge for all I know (I didn't ask, as they probably couldn't tell me). The pricing is better on Ali-Express than Amazon, etc., probably because you're cutting out a middleman or two. Also, this is just one transaction with one seller. Always feel things out on your own, especially if asking for custom work. I legitimately thought I might get a bag of sawdust in the mail, if that puts my overall positive take in perspective. Edit: Trying to examine the interior with the benefit of daylight, I see no cracks in the wood. I do see the nakago channel is a uniform shape and runs almost all the way down the tsuka. At this point I don't trust just two mekugi (even delrin ones) to keep it safe. I will be filling it, likely with Gorilla Glue original, as others have suggested, because I like the sound of it having a somewhat rubber final state. Filling the gap with a firm, form-fit shock absorbing material makes arm-chairn engineering sense. Most of the cracking and splitting happens during assembly when they force the tsuka on with mallets so as long as the wood quality is good, cured but not too dried out, good grain, good wood type, no rot, sugar deposits or knots and you mount it carefully, it should be fine.
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Post by larason2 on Apr 17, 2024 2:39:06 GMT
Interesting post, thanks! Given it actually arrived in somewhat reasonable time, I'd say this is a pretty reasonable way of going about this. It's good enough quality for most reproduction sword projects, which is really what you need. I would think it's one of the longquan sword guys who just do this on the side! (I understand most "Ali Express" shippers are local dealers for the products produced by big companies, and it would make sense that the dealers for this kind of sword gear are the longquan companies.) It's pretty normal for an authentic Japanese katana tsuka to have been made and wrapped with a variety of fittings, including katana handles with smaller fuchi/kashira apparently originally made for tanto or wakizashi. It makes sense, because the fuchi/kashira/menuki of an authentic katana are by far the most expensive and time consuming components to produce, and if you have a really nice set, it makes sense to use them for a project, even if they aren't a "perfect" fit. Traditionally, the handle was carved to suit the fittings at hand anyway, so it didn't matter how big they are. So I wouldn't worry that one is bigger than the other. The other truth is that since authentic fittings are all hand made, there's a pretty big range of sizes and shapes (in fact, when I get a fuchi that is clearly way bigger than the other ones I have, I get suspicious!) Real samegawa sands readily, but so does plastic, so I'm not sure this is a clue either way! It's hard for me to say if these are real or fake, because they are "lacquered", and they appeared to use offcut pieces with no emperor node or anything like that. It's hard for me to believe that they went to the trouble of actually lacquering the same if they can just get some black plastic. Usually lacquered same is left with the nodes lighter so you can tell it's real, but there's nothing saying they can't lacquer everything! Still, if it's so hard to tell real ray skin from plastic, I guess it doesn't matter, particularly at this price point. On the pictures above, I'd say the one with the black leather ito probably has real ray skin samegawa, because I can see the yellow sort of spots on each node, and they have variable reflection. Another way I would tell if it's real is to soak for 15 minutes in water then smell it! Obviously, plastic wouldn't get nice and pliable after a soak. Real ray skin doesn't smell bad, but it doesn't smell good either! Here's a picture of a tsuka I carved, and some real ray skin I put on it: It may just be my eyes, but I feel like the bumps get smaller the further away from the emperor's node you get, yet on a lot of these low end style tsukas, the bumps all have exactly the same range of sizes. Another thing is that on a real one, you get variable reflection as you see above, and you get yellow bits/irregularities on the bumps (you can sand those off, but I doubt they would!). I think the yellow bits make it look more authentic, so unless they catch the finger I leave them as is. For comparison, the fittings on this tsuka are somewhat "wakizashi" scale. But if you carve it so they fit in, it's hard to tell. I have big hands, so I've left this a bit "chubbier" than your average tsuka. It feels really nice in my hands, but I'm worried it's going to feel too thick when I get it all wrapped, so the plan is to thin it down a bit more and refit the samegawa yet again. With the ito on, I think the way it is the ito will stand out a bit too much. I also need to make more room for the knots at the end, otherwise they're going to bulge out too much! Still, too many projects.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 17, 2024 13:22:27 GMT
Interesting post, thanks! Given it actually arrived in somewhat reasonable time, I'd say this is a pretty reasonable way of going about this. It's good enough quality for most reproduction sword projects, which is really what you need. I would think it's one of the longquan sword guys who just do this on the side! (I understand most "Ali Express" shippers are local dealers for the products produced by big companies, and it would make sense that the dealers for this kind of sword gear are the longquan companies.) It's pretty normal for an authentic Japanese katana tsuka to have been made and wrapped with a variety of fittings, including katana handles with smaller fuchi/kashira apparently originally made for tanto or wakizashi. It makes sense, because the fuchi/kashira/menuki of an authentic katana are by far the most expensive and time consuming components to produce, and if you have a really nice set, it makes sense to use them for a project, even if they aren't a "perfect" fit. Traditionally, the handle was carved to suit the fittings at hand anyway, so it didn't matter how big they are. So I wouldn't worry that one is bigger than the other. The other truth is that since authentic fittings are all hand made, there's a pretty big range of sizes and shapes (in fact, when I get a fuchi that is clearly way bigger than the other ones I have, I get suspicious!) Real samegawa sands readily, but so does plastic, so I'm not sure this is a clue either way! It's hard for me to say if these are real or fake, because they are "lacquered", and they appeared to use offcut pieces with no emperor node or anything like that. It's hard for me to believe that they went to the trouble of actually lacquering the same if they can just get some black plastic. Usually lacquered same is left with the nodes lighter so you can tell it's real, but there's nothing saying they can't lacquer everything! Still, if it's so hard to tell real ray skin from plastic, I guess it doesn't matter, particularly at this price point. On the pictures above, I'd say the one with the black leather ito probably has real ray skin samegawa, because I can see the yellow sort of spots on each node, and they have variable reflection. Another way I would tell if it's real is to soak for 15 minutes in water then smell it! Obviously, plastic wouldn't get nice and pliable after a soak. Real ray skin doesn't smell bad, but it doesn't smell good either! Here's a picture of a tsuka I carved, and some real ray skin I put on it: It may just be my eyes, but I feel like the bumps get smaller the further away from the emperor's node you get, yet on a lot of these low end style tsukas, the bumps all have exactly the same range of sizes. Another thing is that on a real one, you get variable reflection as you see above, and you get yellow bits/irregularities on the bumps (you can sand those off, but I doubt they would!). I think the yellow bits make it look more authentic, so unless they catch the finger I leave them as is. For comparison, the fittings on this tsuka are somewhat "wakizashi" scale. But if you carve it so they fit in, it's hard to tell. I have big hands, so I've left this a bit "chubbier" than your average tsuka. It feels really nice in my hands, but I'm worried it's going to feel too thick when I get it all wrapped, so the plan is to thin it down a bit more and refit the samegawa yet again. With the ito on, I think the way it is the ito will stand out a bit too much. I also need to make more room for the knots at the end, otherwise they're going to bulge out too much! Still, too many projects. when talking about a $30 premade tsuka with synthetic ito, incorrect tsukamaki and mismatched sized fuchi and kashira, yes, nothing really matters other than safety. but when you're talking about the design behind the tsuka and katana in general, the size, shape and style of the f&k have an enormous importance in the entire koshirae. katana as we have come to know them were not just meant to be a weapon to kill an opponent with or to defend oneself with, every part and piece was meant to have purpose and to flow with every other part and piece in an aesthetic as well as functional way. just for basics, the fuchi should be the same size and shape as the saya koiguchi, or as close to it as possible. the kashira should be sized based on the fuchi. the style, shape and size of the fuchi and kashira determine the shaping of the tsuka core. one thing depends on the other thing. some of the production katana get this right, or at least close regarding some aspects but perhaps the important one for production koshirae is that the fuchi is correctly chosen so the tsuka will be an appropriate size and shape for it's blade and then that the saya is also appropriately sized for the blade and also aligns with the fuchi. when this isn't taken into consideration, the whole finished product looks off. again, I realize we're talking about the very other end of the spectrum here with this particular tsuka and pretty much the only thing that matters is that it will fit on the nakago and not fall apart during use. it makes no sense to me that they would use a molded plastic copy of samegawa and then sand it. raw samegawa is sanded to remove the sharp hooks at the tips of the nodules. when samegawa is made of plastic, it would typically have rounded tips and the nodes would be more uniform, such as on the Hanwei models. if it were tanned, they would have highly polished tips and the lacquer would be smoother and thicker. also, the direction the nodes becoming smaller or larger in a particular direction on production tsuka can't reveal much since the samegaea is often positioned in the incorrect direction, since they're just panels and the ones assembling them probably have no idea that samegawa position has a purpose, even though they might know that in a full wrap situation, the largest nodes go near the kashira and smaller toward the fuchi. it just doesn't make sense to me that they'd use something harder to make or find and in most cases more expensive than using easily found and inexpensive low grade samegawa. when buying in bulk and using less expensive full skins and off cuts, same like this is super cheap. they also tend to piece together different bits to make the panels, sometimes the seams are hidden well under the tsukamaki, sometimes you can clearly see them. I would bet a decent wager that what they used on these tsuka is exactly what I've described. again, the samegawa has been real on all of the tsuka I've worked on, other than the specific Hanwei models on which the samegawa looked completely different, from the most expensive katana to the absolute cheapest. the Musashi bamboo warrior, when it first came out was maybe around $70 or so and had genuine samegawa panels. so did the Yuki from Munetoshi, which was a similar price. the only plastic samegawa I typically see is on the rat tailed wall hanger swords. if you wanted to test this samegawa without having to take apart the maki you could grind off the paint on the already filed area and then simply touch it up with more paint afterward. if it grinds or files into fine white dust, it's not plastic. if it's real, it will feel like filing teeth.
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