tera
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Posts: 1,662
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Post by tera on Apr 11, 2024 23:58:39 GMT
I can't wait for the "What is this...a tsuka for ants" post. LOL... that is an entirely likely outcome. I'll honestly be surprised if I don't get a bag of sawdust. But I decided it was worth the gamble to find out, as it might help others here who have swords needing rewrap/tsuka work that don't merit the attention of the real Pros.
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Post by LeFaust on Apr 12, 2024 2:33:58 GMT
Is it just custom fittings or were you able to tell them the dimensions of your nakago?
I found a seller on ebay selling custom tsuka with your own nakago measurements but its like double the price of what you found haha.
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Post by blairbob on Apr 12, 2024 3:51:55 GMT
where is that seller, LeFaust? intriguing.
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Post by wildv on Apr 12, 2024 4:43:31 GMT
^ second this.
I purchased a cheap tsuka from Etsy for $20. It was serviceable, and it works. The wrap isn't super tight but I've got some Hanwei blades with worse wrap haha. They also customized it all for me for free.
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Post by LeFaust on Apr 12, 2024 5:39:38 GMT
Here is the ebay listing for the custom tsuka i mentioned above. After shipping it's more like 3 times the price of tera's custom tsuka. This seller seems to have alot of DIY parts. Cores, rayskin, tsuba, saya, etc.
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,662
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Post by tera on Apr 12, 2024 6:02:47 GMT
Is it just custom fittings or were you able to tell them the dimensions of your nakago? I found a seller on ebay selling custom tsuka with your own nakago measurements but its like double the price of what you found haha. This is to my exterior dimensions, but will be a generic interior geometry (no attempt to fit to my specific nakago). I never even though of asking that. I'll be looking at the ebay seller you mentioned. If you've had good luck with them, would you mind starting a thread reviewing the work (and drop a link to it here, too)? We can compare notes on the experiences. I mean, my source's $30 custom tsuka is well priced, but if I could pay $60 for a quality wood core shaped to match my nakago as best as possible, I'd still call that a bargain. EDIT: I pulled up the ebay link and do see that we're comparing less than $30 shipped to about $93 shipped. That's a hard call. The $30 may be good for $1-300 blades, while the $93 option more suited for $3-500, if the quality of work is good?
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Post by LeFaust on Apr 12, 2024 6:48:55 GMT
Is it just custom fittings or were you able to tell them the dimensions of your nakago? I found a seller on ebay selling custom tsuka with your own nakago measurements but its like double the price of what you found haha. This is to my exterior dimensions, but will be a generic interior geometry (no attempt to fit to my specific nakago). I never even though of asking that. I'll be looking at the ebay seller you mentioned. If you've had good luck with them, would you mind starting a thread reviewing the work (and drop a link to it here, too)? We can compare notes on the experiences. I mean, my source's $30 custom tsuka is well priced, but if I could pay $60 for a quality wood core shaped to match my nakago as best as possible, I'd still call that a bargain. EDIT: I pulled up the ebay link and do see that we're comparing less than $30 shipped to about $93 shipped. That's a hard call. The $30 may be good for $1-300 blades, while the $93 option more suited for $3-500, if the quality of work is good? I have no experience with the seller, just something i found on ebay. If it were me, i would probably just buy a core from them for $30-40 and rewrap it myself. The wrapping looks pretty mediocre, doesn't alternate and it is synthetic silk. But if the core is of good quality and decent fitting with measurements, i can see this becoming a good option for people like me who have no woodworking skills/tools....
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Post by blairbob on Apr 12, 2024 7:28:56 GMT
Yeah, I have some tools but not a full set of woodworking tools like my grandpa did besides a lathe and all that. I had been thinking about trying to get someone to reprofile the tsuka of my Raptor or Musashi (then rewrapping it) but according to them, it's more trouble than just carving a new one. It really depends on how the tsuka core is carved for the nakago and particularly how much material you shave off the wood core to make it slimmer or ryugo/haichi.
I did like the shaping of the cores and the whole wrapping with the core will a full wrap of same seems like a huge pain in the ass to me (because I've never done it). Might be not nice to not have to bother with cutting grooves for the panels or glueing it and just trying to wrap it.
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Post by wildv on Apr 12, 2024 8:57:03 GMT
Here is the ebay listing for the custom tsuka i mentioned above. After shipping it's more like 3 times the price of tera's custom tsuka. This seller seems to have alot of DIY parts. Cores, rayskin, tsuba, saya, etc. I actually know this guy I've purchased a lot of items from him over the years (his name is Jason). Really good quality stuff. I did not know they did custom nakago, but I've ordered lots of bits and pieces over the years. The wrap is pretty decent, but he is very good at communication compared to some Chinese sellers. His tsuka cores are really well finished and use hard wood oak, which is a pain to work with, but very tough, strong and bendy. His samegawa is way more expensive than namikawa so I'd avoid that. It's still great quality, but small in size for the price you pay compared to Japan.
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Post by Arlequin on Apr 12, 2024 9:39:35 GMT
Here is the ebay listing for the custom tsuka i mentioned above. After shipping it's more like 3 times the price of tera's custom tsuka. This seller seems to have alot of DIY parts. Cores, rayskin, tsuba, saya, etc. I actually know this guy I've purchased a lot of items from him over the years (his name is Jason). Really good quality stuff. I did not know they did custom nakago, but I've ordered lots of bits and pieces over the years. The wrap is pretty decent, but he is very good at communication compared to some Chinese sellers. His tsuka cores are really well finished and use hard wood oak, which is a pain to work with, but very tough, strong and bendy. His samegawa is way more expensive than namikawa so I'd avoid that. It's still great quality, but small in size for the price you pay compared to Japan. Well damn, wish y'all had mentioned him a few years ago when I was looking to get tsuka work done, got allot of Nos and 1 year wait-lists lol. Unfortunately I already unloaded my old swords, does boost my confidence in buying new sub $600 swords that will probably need a core replacement.
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Post by wildv on Apr 12, 2024 13:26:16 GMT
I actually know this guy I've purchased a lot of items from him over the years (his name is Jason). Really good quality stuff. I did not know they did custom nakago, but I've ordered lots of bits and pieces over the years. The wrap is pretty decent, but he is very good at communication compared to some Chinese sellers. His tsuka cores are really well finished and use hard wood oak, which is a pain to work with, but very tough, strong and bendy. His samegawa is way more expensive than namikawa so I'd avoid that. It's still great quality, but small in size for the price you pay compared to Japan. Well damn, wish y'all had mentioned him a few years ago when I was looking to get tsuka work done, got allot of Nos and 1 year wait-lists lol. Unfortunately I already unloaded my old swords, does boost my confidence in buying new sub $600 swords that will probably need a core replacement. Sorry, I've only been here for maybe a year now? Surprised more people haven't stumbled upon this stuff however? Maybe people just aren't looking for custom stuff?
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Post by LeFaust on Apr 12, 2024 16:17:17 GMT
Here is the ebay listing for the custom tsuka i mentioned above. After shipping it's more like 3 times the price of tera's custom tsuka. This seller seems to have alot of DIY parts. Cores, rayskin, tsuba, saya, etc. I actually know this guy I've purchased a lot of items from him over the years (his name is Jason). Really good quality stuff. I did not know they did custom nakago, but I've ordered lots of bits and pieces over the years. The wrap is pretty decent, but he is very good at communication compared to some Chinese sellers. His tsuka cores are really well finished and use hard wood oak, which is a pain to work with, but very tough, strong and bendy. His samegawa is way more expensive than namikawa so I'd avoid that. It's still great quality, but small in size for the price you pay compared to Japan. Nice to see an endorsement/review of his stuff here. Have you ordered tsuka wraps from him? Does it alternate or its like the picture in the listing. Does he use hishigami? If yes to the above and he is reliable with measurements, i would gladly pay the asking price for his stuff and even more. I wonder if he would be willing to drill the mekugi holes for his customers if we send him detailed measurements and a traced outline of our nakago...
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Post by wildv on Apr 13, 2024 1:14:04 GMT
I actually know this guy I've purchased a lot of items from him over the years (his name is Jason). Really good quality stuff. I did not know they did custom nakago, but I've ordered lots of bits and pieces over the years. The wrap is pretty decent, but he is very good at communication compared to some Chinese sellers. His tsuka cores are really well finished and use hard wood oak, which is a pain to work with, but very tough, strong and bendy. His samegawa is way more expensive than namikawa so I'd avoid that. It's still great quality, but small in size for the price you pay compared to Japan. Nice to see an endorsement/review of his stuff here. Have you ordered tsuka wraps from him? Does it alternate or its like the picture in the listing. Does he use hishigami? If yes to the above and he is reliable with measurements, i would gladly pay the asking price for his stuff and even more. I wonder if he would be willing to drill the mekugi holes for his customers if we send him detailed measurements and a traced outline of our nakago... Both answers are no sadly. However, the wrap is serviceable and a good replacement. It's more his wood cores that are really good quality, having made cores myself, they aren't easy to get right.
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Post by larason2 on Apr 13, 2024 3:36:32 GMT
It's tricky to get everything right. I carved my own tsuka from aspen wood (poplar) that's available locally, and I think that's the best alternative to magnolia I've found so far. The oak around here has a lot of weak spots, so I wouldn't be able to use it. I have a fair bit of carving experience, but even then you really need some kind of cranked neck chisels and kiridashi to make it turn out right. Another tricky bit is making sure each side of the scales are absolutely flat. I don't have the skill to do that with hand planes or kanna, so I use a jointer. Having messed up one mekugi ana for which I had the blade in hand, I wouldn't trust a sketch (I had to carve the mekugi ana weird to get it to look ok!).
I think it's like this in Japan though too. There's plenty of people who do the wrap, the hold ups are always the tsuka and the saya, which has to be carved by hand for the blade, and the blade generally has to be in hand. There's ways to drill the mekugi ana after its glued, but you still need the blade in hand to do it! Still, Walter Sorrels drills the mekugi ana before gluing the tsuka if the blade has a hole already, and I like that method. May not line up perfectly with the wrap, but I really don't like drilling a new hole if it has one already!
The samegawa was harder to work with than I thought. I think the full traditional wrap is the best, but I understand why they use panels, it's much easier. I had to soak and wrap multiple times to get it right, and I still ended up messing up the cut on one end.
So all in all, I think it's best if you have someone hand carve the tsuka to match the sword they have in hand. That being said, if your $30 tsuka in any way works, it was very much worth it! Still, you have lots of work ahead of you to get everything fitting properly, especially if your goal is perfection! So I think it's worth it to pay and wait a long time for someone to do everything right. But it's not always necessary for it to be perfect, I guess!
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tera
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Posts: 1,662
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Post by tera on Apr 13, 2024 4:57:37 GMT
The nakago fit has definitely been one of my higher level concerns if the tsuka aren't total trash. My thinking is most low-end production blades probably have tsuka produced en-masse and they keep trying them on until one fits well enough, same with saya. Blasphemous as this is, I've been contemplating ways to improve tsuka/nakago fitment. Could I wrap the tsuka in plastic wrap, coat it with a release agent, and fill the tsuka with some agent (wiping away the overflow)? Basically, I've bedded rifles before amd wonder if something similar could be done. My favorite pairing for a rifle is DevCon PlastiSteel as the bedding agent and Kiwi shoe polish as the release agent. Creates a smooth, manageable,and rugged mating surface for the action and stock. Way better than the glass bedding kits I've tried. In this context, DevCon may be too rigid. I worry about the tsuka cracking if it contracts due to temp/humidity. That's why I was wonderinf about wood putty, or bondo. They would be softer/more fragile, but I'd rather worry about rebedding a tsuka/sword than the tsuka failing catastrophically. This may be worthy of a separate thread: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/73961/cheap-tsuka-diy-madnessEdit: Also, ordinarily I strongly agree with the above advice ("So I think it's worth it to pay and wait a long time for someone to do everything right. But it's not always necessary for it to be perfect, I guess!"). Unfortunately, the true craftsman I would trust my sword to is no longer taking work orders. My fault for not sending the work sooner!.
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Post by larason2 on Apr 13, 2024 17:04:56 GMT
One strategy if you don't need it to come off again is to lather it with hide glue and jam it in. As long as there's enough of it, it will stick in there pretty well. In practice, the rougher the nakago is, the better this works (I do this for western style tangs!). Of course, epoxy would do the same thing, but it would be less reversible. I would think you'd have to steam the hide glue to get it off though, maybe methyl hydrate.
I don't blame you for trying every possible avenue when skilled work is hard to come by! I'm still trying to learn some of the skills, not so easy!
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Post by crazyjons on Apr 15, 2024 13:34:55 GMT
So I have tried three times now and I believe it works, gorilla glue. Like the original gently foaming style wood glue gorilla glue. If you wipe down the nakago with mineral oil and then drip a fair amount of glue down the tsuka opening and assemble, it will harden and release so you can still dismantle normally. The gorilla glue won't stick to the oiled steel. If it's very loose it helps to run a little water down the inside of the tsuka first, the water makes the glue foam up more. First time I tried this I did not put enough glue and had to do it again but then it was tight. Noteworthy that if you use some water first and/or the fit is very loose the foaming glue can grow out around the kashira and mekugi-ana and need to be trimmed with a razor blade or similar This method was very helpful on both random LQ eBay tsuka and on Ronin kat tsuka that were either very loose or cracked or both. I think the hardened state of the gorilla glue has a nicely flexible consistency that is much more appropriate than epoxy.
Jon
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Post by wildv on Apr 15, 2024 14:28:59 GMT
So I have tried three times now and I believe it works, gorilla glue. Like the original gently foaming style wood glue gorilla glue. If you wipe down the nakago with mineral oil and then drip a fair amount of glue down the tsuka opening and assemble, it will harden and release so you can still dismantle normally. The gorilla glue won't stick to the oiled steel. If it's very loose it helps to run a little water down the inside of the tsuka first, the water makes the glue foam up more. First time I tried this I did not put enough glue and had to do it again but then it was tight. Noteworthy that if you use some water first and/or the fit is very loose the foaming glue can grow out around the kashira and mekugi-ana and need to be trimmed with a razor blade or similar This method was very helpful on both random LQ eBay tsuka and on Ronin kat tsuka that were either very loose or cracked or both. I think the hardened state of the gorilla glue has a nicely flexible consistency that is much more appropriate than epoxy. Jon I am shocked that this is the first time I have ever heard of this and this seems like a 100% fix to all these cheap $30 tsuka we see on Ebay. Have you just single-handedly solved all our problems?
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Post by wildv on Apr 15, 2024 14:30:43 GMT
I should add I have broken down many tsuka from cheaper swords not that I'd had many and some of them seem to have a kind of epoxy or glue, it's black and hard like epoxy something that is definitely not wood, bulking them out. It could be something like this?
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tera
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Post by tera on Apr 15, 2024 15:57:26 GMT
I'm nor familiar with a "foaming" guerrilla glue product. Any chance you could drop a link to the version you've used?
UPDATE: According to the tracking info, the tsuka are due to arrive today. As they were originally "guaranteed" by yesterday, Ali-Express sent me a $1 coupon for my inconvenience (which was none at all).
If they show up today I'll be shocked. Fast work, and fast shipping from China. I thought this would take 3 months.
Of course, there is the saying, "Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick two." Looks like this is fast and cheap, so... we'll see. 🤷♂️
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