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Post by blairbob on Mar 16, 2024 7:45:59 GMT
because Motohara can deliver in 3-4 months instead of 1-1.5yrs?
Besides, tool steels likely stronger anyways. It would be interesting if Tokensho/Matsuzkaze got into forging blades with various tool steels instead of Shirogami steel.
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Post by blairbob on Mar 16, 2024 8:07:33 GMT
if you have the money, you can always buy a new Shinsakuto. It's just a matter of time before you receive it. I'm not affluent (nor likely some of us here) enough to the point of being able to buy one, then not caring if I bent or chipped it because of how long it might take me to afford another. Some people definitely can though. That's beer or money to blow in one night or a weekend. www.japanese-sword-katana.jp/ a handful of shinsakuto over 70cm between 3-4k$USD. You might need a longer tsuka and I'm guessing that doesn't include prices for the middleman? Ofc, a new tsuka isn't that costly if you are laying down 3-5k$ Unfortunately, no idea how much a cutting polish comes from Japan though it seems middleman broker fees between sellers and smiths can be 15-20%. There is an apprentice on Reddit that mentioned his teacher sells blades starting at $3.3k which means you could probably have them mounted in the US for another $1.5-2 or so. Then again, some blades might cost a lot more than that (hopefully that price was for katana not tanto).
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Post by wildv on Mar 16, 2024 15:09:44 GMT
Is Motohara blades basically the best brand for katanas that one can get that is not a real Japanese shinken or antique nihonto? I would not agree with this statement, no. I own blades from most known sword makers/brands and even some that don't exist anymore does Cheness still make katana? I recently purchased a Wang Katana from Ebay, my first cheap sword in over a decade, paid $100 and was amazed at how good it is!! I've been cutting with it twice a week for over a month now and it's shocking how good it is. You do not need to spend $3000 on a sword for it to be good. I love my motohara but prefer right now my cheaper Wang sword because I literally don't care about it. Now if you want refinement, you need to pay, but for a sword as good or the same as a shinken from Japan in terms of actual use - not art. There are many options. I also had this thread recently that might answer your question? sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/73523/toughest-read-description-japanese-bladeHoward Clark was the stand out winner for non japanese blade.
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Post by blairbob on Mar 17, 2024 1:39:51 GMT
nope.
but Motohara is a bit unique. the blades are likely production level but the fit and finish are above and beyond what is to be expected coming out of China/not Japan.
I'll have to go dig up some reviews on MAS as I came across a few other swordmakers in Korea I had never heard about. Blades tend to be made wide though for cutting mats. Look nice but looks can be deceiving
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Post by vidar on Mar 17, 2024 13:37:16 GMT
I have a MAS. Maybe I was just unlucky but fit and finish was not good. I had the entire tsuka redone. Very disappointing for this price level.
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Post by blairbob on Mar 17, 2024 20:32:39 GMT
that's generally what I remember of MAS reviews but maybe they weren't all that way.
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Post by maro on Mar 18, 2024 1:14:02 GMT
Anyways all that said like you mentioned I'm sure a traditional nihonto can absolutely hold up to the cutting of things you are mentioning, and with a certain edge and blade profile those harder targets also won't be an issue. I just gravitated toward modern mono steels because I felt from my experience and learning that they just have an enhanced level of durability and that may be overkill for these kind of tests as you mentioned. However I also wouldn't ever want to cut with a traditional nihonto, and didn't know modern made high quality nihonto can be purchased for only 3 to 4k as fully fitted. It just seemed that modern made katana for the price they can cost. I would hate to buy one and use it a lot and then risk higher chance of damaging it. That's al, I'm no expert or very experienced with them so perhaps I'm not giving enough credit as they rightfully deserve. I may just be misinformed on quite a few things. But it seems to be the common mindset regarding these traditionally made swords today, even if it's inaccurate it then became my presumption as well. I would love to use a real nihonto for my training as well, if I knew the situations I was worried about were very unlikely. As I said, you can get modern nihonto made from modern steel (albeit tatara smelted) for the same price as a lot of these modern mono-steels. To be blunt, a lot of the mono-steel ones are over-priced. Again, there is nothing weak about nihonto and magical about monosteel - if you are bending a sword when ctting, it will likely bend whatever the steel. I've cut double-used mats in Japan with a tiny Koto blade. They were designed to cut. Of course, I'm not saying buy a Koto blade to practice with - just that if you train properly, the technique will succeed.
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Post by maro on Mar 18, 2024 1:15:07 GMT
because Motohara can deliver in 3-4 months instead of 1-1.5yrs? Besides, tool steels likely stronger anyways. It would be interesting if Tokensho/Matsuzkaze got into forging blades with various tool steels instead of Shirogami steel. Plenty of places in Japan you can buy off the street. Customisation of Motohara blades can also take just as long. TBH, I know about 20 people who use Jason's blades and none have a stock one
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Post by maro on Mar 18, 2024 1:21:01 GMT
I don't agree that Chinese blades bend more easily, and I have personal experience that they aren't harder to straighten. They are both quite easy to straighten without a kink in the blade with the right tools. The unhardened metal on a Japanese blade is just as soft as on a Chinese blade, if they are both differentially hardened, and the ha is just as hard. I personally believe Nihonto cut better though, thanks to the presence of carbides, compared to Chinese swords made from carbon steel. "Super steel" is just an attempt to get carbides in the cutting edge, just like Nihonto have, without needing to pay as much. If you're going to say such things, I think you need to back them up with evidence. I've been cutting used tatami for over 24 years In that time, I've seen probably over 30 Chinese made blades bend and around 10 Nihonto (just the ratio in use, nothing about quality). ALL of the Chinese made blades have s-bends compared to the Nihonto, which makes them much harder for the average person to straigthen fully with no weak spot. You may be lucky in that you are skilled enough to do it. My instructors include togishi that have fixed both - the Chinese blades here in Oz when he visited He specifically took the time to explain it. The Nihonto simply straighen more successfully. I also own a monster Nihonto that was bent (Not by me) on an 8 Mat futomaki. It was cold hammered, by the tosho who made it, back into shape I've trained in Japan and visited these tosho and togishi over 20 times - it's not like I'm making stuff up.
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Post by larason2 on Mar 18, 2024 3:18:12 GMT
A Nihonto made from Tamahagane is one thing, and you can expect them all to behave similarly, but there's a lot of variation in Chinese swords. A carbon steel Chinese sword that's differentially hardened is no different from tamahagane when it comes to straightening, and that's primarily what I have experience with. If you're using a tool steel like T10, or a sword that's through hardened, that's a different matter though. I don't think it's right to say all Chinese swords are hard to straighten, but it may be true that there are some that are. About half of my Chinese Katana blades (all carbon steel, differentially hardened), and half of my Nihonto blades (all antiques, tamahagane) have come bent, and using traditional Japanese sword benders made of Elm (since that is what is available here), they have both straightened easily and successfully, and I haven't noticed any difference when it comes to straightening them (tamahagane seems to get much sharper with traditional polishing though, that is to say it catches your finger much more easily!).
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Post by blairbob on Mar 18, 2024 4:16:36 GMT
how long are we talking about?
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Post by blairbob on Mar 18, 2024 4:18:16 GMT
something to do with carbides? from what i looked up recently, a lot of nihonto are mostly just 0.7% carbon with some chromium and a very low content of anything else (manganese, silicon, etc besides sulphur and phosphorus which small trace amounts of are preferred)
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Post by larason2 on Mar 18, 2024 12:58:02 GMT
Yes, I think so. It's the micro serrations from the carbides!
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Post by izzy on Mar 18, 2024 15:30:39 GMT
I don't agree that Chinese blades bend more easily, and I have personal experience that they aren't harder to straighten. They are both quite easy to straighten without a kink in the blade with the right tools. The unhardened metal on a Japanese blade is just as soft as on a Chinese blade, if they are both differentially hardened, and the ha is just as hard. I personally believe Nihonto cut better though, thanks to the presence of carbides, compared to Chinese swords made from carbon steel. "Super steel" is just an attempt to get carbides in the cutting edge, just like Nihonto have, without needing to pay as much. If you're going to say such things, I think you need to back them up with evidence. I've been cutting used tatami for over 24 years In that time, I've seen probably over 30 Chinese made blades bend and around 10 Nihonto (just the ratio in use, nothing about quality). ALL of the Chinese made blades have s-bends compared to the Nihonto, which makes them much harder for the average person to straigthen fully with no weak spot. You may be lucky in that you are skilled enough to do it. My instructors include togishi that have fixed both - the Chinese blades here in Oz when he visited He specifically took the time to explain it. The Nihonto simply straighen more successfully. I also own a monster Nihonto that was bent (Not by me) on an 8 Mat futomaki. It was cold hammered, by the tosho who made it, back into shape I've trained in Japan and visited these tosho and togishi over 20 times - it's not like I'm making stuff up. Maro,
Are we talking through hardened Chinese Blades ( say the Old Cheness, etc.), or differentially, hardened in an approximation of Japanese blades taking an "S" bend ?
Just curious about your experiences.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Mar 18, 2024 16:12:02 GMT
Modern mode differently hardened Chinese steel katanas are always something I would avoid anyways. Quality control is a lot less consistent on them. Anyways I appreciate and am learning quite a bit from Maros responses. Something else worthy of notation is the quality of modern made Tamahagene style steel. The purity in which it is in modern time is much higher quality than medieval japan. So even using the same old methods of sword making for Nihonto in Japan. The iron sand and etc they have access to and use is also containing a lot less impurities, than the quality of steel which was accessible in previous centuries for these methods in Japan.
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Post by larason2 on Mar 18, 2024 16:49:30 GMT
I like differentially hardened Chinese carbon steel katanas, and I don't think there's any reason to avoid them for cutting, other than a small increased risk of breaking compared to a through hardened blade, particularly if they are laminated. That risk is always there anyway, even for a Nihonto, and I don't think the small increased risk is sufficient to avoid them entirely if you plan to use them to cut with. I buy them for the aesthetics, and how they respond to polishing, but they are solid swords.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Mar 18, 2024 17:34:35 GMT
I like differentially hardened Chinese carbon steel katanas, and I don't think there's any reason to avoid them for cutting, other than a small increased risk of breaking compared to a through hardened blade, particularly if they are laminated. That risk is always there anyway, even for a Nihonto, and I don't think the small increased risk is sufficient to avoid them entirely if you plan to use them to cut with. I buy them for the aesthetics, and how they respond to polishing, but they are solid swords. Since I already have a Motohara I just don't feel the need. But I think if someone is on a tighter budget then there are really nice options from Hanwei. I just don't have a desire to collect more japanese style swords unless I picked up a nihonto, or if I saved a lot for a Howard Clark.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Mar 18, 2024 20:30:13 GMT
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Post by maro on Mar 18, 2024 23:00:13 GMT
Very nice As a comparison, my nihonto cost $3148 - but obviously, that is dependent upon the fluctuating Aussie Dollar. US Dollar always wins there
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Post by maro on Mar 18, 2024 23:01:38 GMT
Modern mode differently hardened Chinese steel katanas are always something I would avoid anyways. Quality control is a lot less consistent on them. Anyways I appreciate and am learning quite a bit from Maros responses. Something else worthy of notation is the quality of modern made Tamahagene style steel. The purity in which it is in modern time is much higher quality than medieval japan. So even using the same old methods of sword making for Nihonto in Japan. The iron sand and etc they have access to and use is also containing a lot less impurities, than the quality of steel which was accessible in previous centuries for these methods in Japan. Everything from the old crowbar blades to Ryansword, etc One thing to note is a lot of people buy blades with bohi for cutting which they really shouldn't use at that stage in their experience.
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