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Post by toddstratton1 on Mar 12, 2024 3:50:19 GMT
c’mon man. Sorry, it's just when I purchased my Motohara around 1-1.5 years ago, someone told me they were $2200. A few years before that I'd purchased a Citadel for the exact same price, so I figured it made sense -- manufacturing competition and all of that. But my Motohara came out to $3200 and I barely changed anything. So I was a bit annoyed I had to fork out an extra $1000. Do you recall what you did? Certain parts can add a lot of cost. Especially some fittings as well. Mine was 3400 but I had quite a bit of changes. Does anyone know what sgt steel is by the way? I could ask Jason next time I see him but just curious
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Post by wildv on Mar 12, 2024 6:05:19 GMT
Sorry, it's just when I purchased my Motohara around 1-1.5 years ago, someone told me they were $2200. A few years before that I'd purchased a Citadel for the exact same price, so I figured it made sense -- manufacturing competition and all of that. But my Motohara came out to $3200 and I barely changed anything. So I was a bit annoyed I had to fork out an extra $1000. Do you recall what you did? Certain parts can add a lot of cost. Especially some fittings as well. Mine was 3400 but I had quite a bit of changes. Does anyone know what sgt steel is by the way? I could ask Jason next time I see him but just curious I did get much nicer fittings and a bit more with the samegawa wrap. It was worth the extra money, don't get me wrong I'd pay it or more again any day of the week for Motohara but a big jump up from $2200!
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Post by blairbob on Mar 12, 2024 11:46:49 GMT
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Post by samuraiguy on Mar 12, 2024 12:05:30 GMT
All I’m saying is, if you just don’t do any upgrades (which still makes for a very nice sword with a lot of free of charge options) you can easily come out with a Motohara shipped under $3,000. Specifically $2,650 for me because shipping was 50 bucks, and $2,650 is closer to $2,500 than it is to $3,000. Telling people they can’t get a base Motohara for under $3,000 is just disingenuous.
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Post by wildv on Mar 12, 2024 14:48:45 GMT
All I’m saying is, if you just don’t do any upgrades (which still makes for a very nice sword with a lot of free of charge options) you can easily come out with a Motohara shipped under $3,000. Specifically $2,650 for me because shipping was 50 bucks, and $2,650 is closer to $2,500 than it is to $3,000. Telling people they can’t get a base Motohara for under $3,000 is just disingenuous. Sigh. All I said was you could not buy a Motohara for $2500 which is completely true but then we got into a back and forth of semantics. Hopefully people reading this can see what the point is here. I own a Motohara katana and am very happy. You seem very happy with yours. A win for the people (but you still cannot get a new one direct for $2500 )
And for clarity this is what I wrote - they more or less "start" at $3000
You can see I did not edit that original post so have not changed what I said. I assumed the """ marks made sense but English is not my native language so please forgive me.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Mar 12, 2024 14:59:35 GMT
Oh wow that's interesting, I didn't realize SGT steel was an actual real steel itself, I assumed it was just an abbreviation Motohara was using for a different kind of steel that was for that particular steel type. Like perhaps 5160 or 6150, which personally are my favorites. But that's typically with European monosteel swords that I like it. I don't know what are the best steels to use for modern made katanas, besides a Howard Clark L6 I suppose.
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Post by samuraiguy on Mar 12, 2024 20:16:21 GMT
All I’m saying is, if you just don’t do any upgrades (which still makes for a very nice sword with a lot of free of charge options) you can easily come out with a Motohara shipped under $3,000. Specifically $2,650 for me because shipping was 50 bucks, and $2,650 is closer to $2,500 than it is to $3,000. Telling people they can’t get a base Motohara for under $3,000 is just disingenuous. Sigh. All I said was you could not buy a Motohara for $2500 which is completely true but then we got into a back and forth of semantics. Hopefully people reading this can see what the point is here. I own a Motohara katana and am very happy. You seem very happy with yours. A win for the people (but you still cannot get a new one direct for $2500 )
And for clarity this is what I wrote - they more or less "start" at $3000
You can see I did not edit that original post so have not changed what I said. I assumed the """ marks made sense but English is not my native language so please forgive me.
Hey brother, I'm not angry or anything and you're right the back and forth is silly. I just didn't want anyone who wants to buy a base model Motohara to be disheartened if they thought $3,000 is the starting point, because like you said $100 can make the difference on someone placing an order or not. Either way, all is good, I'm not offended in anyway and I hope you aren't either.
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Post by bradc on Mar 12, 2024 20:26:01 GMT
Oh, the fit and finish are top-notch with Motohara. No doubt about that. That said, "feel" is largely subjective and can be relative to how familiar you feel handling any specific sword. In terms of "performance," I really wonder about that. The ability to cut through a traditional target medium like tatami or bamboo is most directly affected by the quality of the polish/edge geometry. Is Motohara doing a superior job in this regard compared to others? Just how optimized should a sword be for cutting such targets anyway? My guess is that, in the final analysis, most swords will do the same job just as well, whether you're using a high-end custom or a dojo beater. There just isn't a practical necessity for a sword to be Howard Clark bainite level of toughness to cut traditional targets or water bottles (or just air). And more subtle feedback like drag/resistance is not enough to justify the price tag, in my opinion. But hey, if you can afford the bells and whistles and it makes you happy, go for it! I think on a certain level you are right and I have bias for sure. However I feel like a lot of the Chinese production swords I've seen don't hold up quite the same for the very long term, taking bends, or needing more frequent resharpening, heat treat issues on some differently hardened stuff, also the tsuka and tsuba getting loose a bit more easily , the wrap in the grip being more easily pushed around. Here is a huge thing about Motohara though, the swords have a lifetime warranty when being used as intended. So if you're a serious practioner and plan to train for a long time, you'll definitely get the value out of what you pay and it will feel worth it. As a backyard cutter though and being more casual it's certainly overkill. I think the durability aspect you bring up is undervalued by many when they are first shopping. After almost 5 years and countless hours of regular practice, my Motohara still feels like new, and nothing rattles. Also, I have yet to find any swords at a lower price that hits the same fit and finish level (not counting Iaito of course) while offering sufficient customization for a wide range of users. Honestly, I think the price is fair for what you get. They may not be the right choice for everyone, but if you are a serious JSA practitioner they are a wonderful training tool. And Jason is great at helping you find what will fit your needs without pressuring you to buy something you don't need.
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Post by blairbob on Mar 13, 2024 4:22:53 GMT
well Howard used to use 1086M (Manganese?) for his other blades. From what I remember, the carbon content in some Nihonto was around 0.7 maybe 0.75 besides the various other trace elements. Some iron sand had a lot of silicon content which we know makes tough durable blades. this doesn't show up as much in the charts below. While Tamahagane starts at 1-1.5% carbon, you lose carbon every time you fold the steel. L6 if you remember is around 0.7%. I also see 0.75 but NBD www.nihontocraft.com/Gunsuihagane.htmlwww.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23184-steel-analysis-of-different-regional-schools/so it's basically low trace element everything besides chromium of all things. too bad lots of the urls and pdfs from the Nihonto board are deadski. there is also that rumor that in China they use T8 for swords but T10 sounds better for marketing. But if you were to fold up T10, you would end up with less carbon anyways unless you weren't folding it like Hanwei used to do with it's forged line of Railroad steel that was supposed to be similar to 1095. I'm reading railroad steel often has lots of manganese in modern days for what it's worth.
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Post by vidar on Mar 14, 2024 11:40:36 GMT
Personally, I simply cannot justify getting a sword that expensive unless it's a nihonto for collecting. I fully agree. There’s nothing wrong with Motohara but for people who love Japanese swords, why not buy a real Japanese sword if it’s in the same budget range? There are obviously also Nihonto that can cut bamboo in case that is the concern…
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Post by wildv on Mar 14, 2024 14:55:57 GMT
Personally, I simply cannot justify getting a sword that expensive unless it's a nihonto for collecting. I fully agree. There’s nothing wrong with Motohara but for people who love Japanese swords, why not buy a real Japanese sword if it’s in the same budget range? There are obviously also Nihonto that can cut bamboo in case that is the concern… I personally burnt myself out with nihonto. Once you have them, one, two or a few they basically just sit there and collect dust. I wanted a sword made to a high standard of quality like nihonto, but without the historical worry so purchased a motohara. This way if I wreck it motohara I'll just buy another one. Once the nihonto is wrecked it can never be made again which is sad.
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Post by vidar on Mar 14, 2024 15:52:58 GMT
I agree, if it’s an antique Nihonto. Damaging one is a shame indeed. There are also modern made Nihonto that are intended for cutting. I know several people that use Nihonto for tameshigiri, including cutting bamboo.
But again, I have no problem with Motohara, they are excellent swords for people who are happy to spend the money.
There are also American made swords that are great for cutting, like the ones from Rick Barrett. Not easy to find but definitely worth considering.
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Post by larason2 on Mar 14, 2024 16:29:32 GMT
Even if I bought a gendaito Nihonto, even one as cheap as a motohara, I wouldn't want to cut with it! A small proportion of swords made from tamahagane can break, since there's always a chance of a gap in the metal because of the high degree of welding, so this is always a risk (as it is with any sword!). Next, for me the reason to get a Nihonto is the aesthetics. I'm sure tamahagane cuts a little better than the steel used by the Korean smiths to make a motohara, but I don't think it's enough to justify letting the nice Japanese polish get scuffed up. Nothing wrong with cutting with a gendaito Nihonto (or any Nihonto!), since that's what they're made for, but that's my opinion. If you get a Japanese blade made from anything other than Tamahagane, then I'd have no problem with cutting with it. But the risk coupled with the loss of aesthetics would make me pause before cutting with any tamahagane blade, since there's so much time investment into making one, and they look so good.
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Post by vidar on Mar 14, 2024 17:17:10 GMT
I also wouldn’t spoil a fine art polish by cutting. But many Nihonto come with a basic polish for tameshigiri or are already scratched from cutting. If you buy such a sword, don’t worry about using it. Unless your technique is not yet as it should be, then best to practice first with an affordable Chinese sword.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Mar 14, 2024 17:22:43 GMT
I agree, if it’s an antique Nihonto. Damaging one is a shame indeed. There are also modern made Nihonto that are intended for cutting. I know several people that use Nihonto for tameshigiri, including cutting bamboo. But again, I have no problem with Motohara, they are excellent swords for people who are happy to spend the money. There are also American made swords that are great for cutting, like the ones from Rick Barrett. Not easy to find but definitely worth considering. Personally I like Nihonto as well. But compared to modern made steels they just don't hold up quite the same to a lot of use. They are more likely to take a bend, or can get damaged somewhat easily etc. If I was living in Japan and training there then I would love to have one. And as a collection piece they are awesome as well. Even just for practicing Iai and techniques I'd like even a modern made one. But the very well made ones are thousands if not sometimes even 10k+ , and that's for modern stuff. Motohara swords are just very good utilitarian type of blades that hold up well to all the stuff I would put it through with cutting and etc, and has the added benefit of some really nice and high quality fittings, fit, and finish as well. They also have prettier hamon on some of their blades if you use that steel type option. But with Tamahagene steel and traditionally made Katana I feel as if they are a just not something that I desire to use actively for cutting and regular training in the same way as I feel comfortable with modern made monosteel types of swords.
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Post by maro on Mar 16, 2024 1:47:12 GMT
I agree, if it’s an antique Nihonto. Damaging one is a shame indeed. There are also modern made Nihonto that are intended for cutting. I know several people that use Nihonto for tameshigiri, including cutting bamboo. But again, I have no problem with Motohara, they are excellent swords for people who are happy to spend the money. There are also American made swords that are great for cutting, like the ones from Rick Barrett. Not easy to find but definitely worth considering. Personally I like Nihonto as well. But compared to modern made steels they just don't hold up quite the same to a lot of use. They are more likely to take a bend, or can get damaged somewhat easily etc. If I was living in Japan and training there then I would love to have one. And as a collection piece they are awesome as well. Even just for practicing Iai and techniques I'd like even a modern made one. But the very well made ones are thousands if not sometimes even 10k+ , and that's for modern stuff. Motohara swords are just very good utilitarian type of blades that hold up well to all the stuff I would put it through with cutting and etc, and has the added benefit of some really nice and high quality fittings, fit, and finish as well. They also have prettier hamon on some of their blades if you use that steel type option. But with Tamahagene steel and traditionally made Katana I feel as if they are a just not something that I desire to use actively for cutting and regular training in the same way as I feel comfortable with modern made monosteel types of swords. That isn't true - my modern Nihonto is amongst those that sell for around 3-4000 USD fully fitted. What on earth are you cutting that needs "Super steel" - I cut 2 inch Bamboo and used tatami and apart from surface scratches, no damage at all In fact, Chinese made blades tend to bend more easily and also are harder to straighten without a kink in the blade. Some of you certainly have odd ideas about Japanese made blades. The vast majority are user-blades, not wafter thin art pieces.
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Post by larason2 on Mar 16, 2024 2:02:48 GMT
I don't agree that Chinese blades bend more easily, and I have personal experience that they aren't harder to straighten. They are both quite easy to straighten without a kink in the blade with the right tools. The unhardened metal on a Japanese blade is just as soft as on a Chinese blade, if they are both differentially hardened, and the ha is just as hard. I personally believe Nihonto cut better though, thanks to the presence of carbides, compared to Chinese swords made from carbon steel. "Super steel" is just an attempt to get carbides in the cutting edge, just like Nihonto have, without needing to pay as much. If you're going to say such things, I think you need to back them up with evidence.
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voidec
Member
Back in the game after like 8 years
Posts: 144
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Post by voidec on Mar 16, 2024 2:32:50 GMT
Is Motohara blades basically the best brand for katanas that one can get that is not a real Japanese shinken or antique nihonto?
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Post by toddstratton1 on Mar 16, 2024 7:12:42 GMT
Is Motohara blades basically the best brand for katanas that one can get that is not a real Japanese shinken or antique nihonto? I wouldn't call it a brand per say myself but rather the best producer of modern made Japanese swords that isn't a custom smith like Howard Clark.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Mar 16, 2024 7:23:35 GMT
Personally I like Nihonto as well. But compared to modern made steels they just don't hold up quite the same to a lot of use. They are more likely to take a bend, or can get damaged somewhat easily etc. If I was living in Japan and training there then I would love to have one. And as a collection piece they are awesome as well. Even just for practicing Iai and techniques I'd like even a modern made one. But the very well made ones are thousands if not sometimes even 10k+ , and that's for modern stuff. Motohara swords are just very good utilitarian type of blades that hold up well to all the stuff I would put it through with cutting and etc, and has the added benefit of some really nice and high quality fittings, fit, and finish as well. They also have prettier hamon on some of their blades if you use that steel type option. But with Tamahagene steel and traditionally made Katana I feel as if they are a just not something that I desire to use actively for cutting and regular training in the same way as I feel comfortable with modern made monosteel types of swords. That isn't true - my modern Nihonto is amongst those that sell for around 3-4000 USD fully fitted. What on earth are you cutting that needs "Super steel" - I cut 2 inch Bamboo and used tatami and apart from surface scratches, no damage at all In fact, Chinese made blades tend to bend more easily and also are harder to straighten without a kink in the blade. Some of you certainly have odd ideas about Japanese made blades. The vast majority are user-blades, not wafter thin art pieces. I don't have much experience with modern made nihonto. But the traditional forging methods they use seems by most accounts to create a sword that just isn't as consistently sturdy or durable as modern made steel swords can be wirh modern technology involved. But it's not to say perfectly functional and very nice swords cannot be made in that traditional way. As of course there are innumerous examples of that. I wasn't comparing them to Chinese swords themselves though, rather just modern mono steel swords that were forged in China with Japanese type of swords they produce, which aren't folded steel and sometimes not differently hardened which causes the bend issue more commonly. Anyways all that said like you mentioned I'm sure a traditional nihonto can absolutely hold up to the cutting of things you are mentioning, and with a certain edge and blade profile those harder targets also won't be an issue. I just gravitated toward modern mono steels because I felt from my experience and learning that they just have an enhanced level of durability and that may be overkill for these kind of tests as you mentioned. However I also wouldn't ever want to cut with a traditional nihonto, and didn't know modern made high quality nihonto can be purchased for only 3 to 4k as fully fitted. It just seemed that modern made katana for the price they can cost. I would hate to buy one and use it a lot and then risk higher chance of damaging it. That's al, I'm no expert or very experienced with them so perhaps I'm not giving enough credit as they rightfully deserve. I may just be misinformed on quite a few things. But it seems to be the common mindset regarding these traditionally made swords today, even if it's inaccurate it then became my presumption as well. I would love to use a real nihonto for my training as well, if I knew the situations I was worried about were very unlikely.
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