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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 18, 2024 20:17:03 GMT
Hi Folks...My First Post... Looking for some help with this old katana sword I got recently. The handle & saya are ray skin...the saya has cool swordsmen & archers on the tie mounts & the tip... The fish Menuki in the handle wrap tested as 14k Gold... I've been looking for the makers mark in the databases on and off for a couple weeks now with no luck. Tried the Google translate as well...the only word that continues to come up is Yamaguchi...After I traced the kanji in solid black I was able to get the translator to show me a number of other words but I was not able to locate those in the database...Hopefully someone here has more experience with these can help??? Many Thanks!!!
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 18, 2024 20:40:13 GMT
Welcome, You might want to post these "what do I have" questions in the japanese swords subrforum next time, more of the right people will see it there. I'll ask the mods to move the thread if that's OK.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 18, 2024 20:44:16 GMT
Well, a bit of bad news, to get it out of the way: What you have is not an authentic Japanese sword, so I hope you didn't buy it believing that it was.
It's not even a very good attempt at a replica, unfortunately, as it has many characteristics simply wrong.
To me, it seems like a later 20th Century (c. 1970-1990) Chinese-made replica. Between the non-alternating crossovers on the grip wrap, coarse pattern in the blade steel, poorly-shaped tip and tang, and the gaudy furniture, it's pretty classical among this era of "fake" antique Japanese swords.
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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 18, 2024 21:04:24 GMT
Welcome, You might want to post these "what do I have" questions in the japanese swords subrforum next time, more of the right people will see it there. I'll ask the mods to move the thread if that's OK. Sure please move it...thanks!
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 18, 2024 21:51:59 GMT
Looks like the fish menuki are plated...
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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 19, 2024 0:11:10 GMT
Looks like the fish menuki are plated... I do know how to test gold...
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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 19, 2024 0:11:32 GMT
Well, a bit of bad news, to get it out of the way: What you have is not an authentic Japanese sword, so I hope you didn't buy it believing that it was. It's not even a very good attempt at a replica, unfortunately, as it has many characteristics simply wrong. To me, it seems like a later 20th Century (c. 1970-1990) Chinese-made replica. Between the non-alternating crossovers on the grip wrap, coarse pattern in the blade steel, poorly-shaped tip and tang, and the gaudy furniture, it's pretty classical among this era of "fake" antique Japanese swords. Thanks...do others agree?
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 19, 2024 0:34:50 GMT
Looks like the fish menuki are plated... I do know how to test gold... Sorry.. it just looks the the finish is washing off/wearing off towards the fish's tail.
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Post by larason2 on Jan 19, 2024 0:51:43 GMT
This is a weird one. Terrible wrap job, and inclined to think it's an acid washed, poorly reground blade, but it could be it was just rewrapped, repolished badly. The habaki is good quality and has a nice patina though (ruined by perhaps the acid in spots), and the signature is pretty nicely carved. The sharpie on the tang/nakago looks typical for Chinese production though. I don't know about the fish, the Japanese did use amalgam to plate gold, not sure how you assayed it. It wouldn't be Chinese if it was gold plated though. I can't comment further, better to put it before the eyes of those on the Nihonto Message Board. I suspect they'll say the same thing though, hard to tell.
You can't use Google translate for these, try something like Nihongo. It's more likely to come up with identification for ancient kanji.
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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 19, 2024 16:30:51 GMT
This is a weird one. Terrible wrap job, and inclined to think it's an acid washed, poorly reground blade, but it could be it was just rewrapped, repolished badly. The habaki is good quality and has a nice patina though (ruined by perhaps the acid in spots), and the signature is pretty nicely carved. The sharpie on the tang/nakago looks typical for Chinese production though. I don't know about the fish, the Japanese did use amalgam to plate gold, not sure how you assayed it. It wouldn't be Chinese if it was gold plated though. I can't comment further, better to put it before the eyes of those on the Nihonto Message Board. I suspect they'll say the same thing though, hard to tell. You can't use Google translate for these, try something like Nihongo. It's more likely to come up with identification for ancient kanji. Thanks for this info...helpful
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Post by wildv on Jan 20, 2024 5:12:41 GMT
This is a weird one. Terrible wrap job, and inclined to think it's an acid washed, poorly reground blade, but it could be it was just rewrapped, repolished badly. The habaki is good quality and has a nice patina though (ruined by perhaps the acid in spots), and the signature is pretty nicely carved. The sharpie on the tang/nakago looks typical for Chinese production though. I don't know about the fish, the Japanese did use amalgam to plate gold, not sure how you assayed it. It wouldn't be Chinese if it was gold plated though. I can't comment further, better to put it before the eyes of those on the Nihonto Message Board. I suspect they'll say the same thing though, hard to tell. You can't use Google translate for these, try something like Nihongo. It's more likely to come up with identification for ancient kanji. Thanks for this info...helpful 100% fake and I'd bet you any amount of money you want this is a fake. There are many reasons I'll list the first few that I noticed; the signature, tool marks on the nakago, the way the nakago is finished in general, the permanent marker "33" on the nakago, the kissaki is absolutely horrible both the forge and the polish side. You can forgive a bad polish because sometimes people that don't know anything try to sharpen a sword, but you cannot forgive the horrible forging. I didn't even look at the other photos, it's so easy to tell once you know what you're looking at.
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tera
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Post by tera on Jan 20, 2024 18:59:55 GMT
I don't usually chime in for these sorts of things, but there are a few concerning points. At best, I'd wager this piece was cobbled together from some disparate components.
1) The blade seems to be in the style of a katana, but the fittings are mounted so it could be worn like a tachi. We usually see deeper sori for blades worn edge down, for example. 2) There is no geometric yokote, and the kissaki goes a little concaved at one point. Perhaps it used to be proper, but someone took a rotary tool to it in a diy polish? 3) The geometry of the nakago seems a little off in general. 4) I see what looks like sparkly bits in a clean, unrusted mekugi-ana. Possibly burs from the hole being drilled by a power tool? Or, the picture could now show the full reality of it. Or, someone later "chases" the hole to make things fit? 5) The whole tsuka looks suspect to me. Looks like modern wrap with glue used near the Kashira. Also looks like the same was laquered/painted after construction, which would explain why the gold menuki has a "patina" and why there is some yellow same exposed near the kashira. I suspect this component, at least, is modern, mass produced, and if the blade is older this was added. 6) Most of the fittings look to be stamped metal, and the tsuba looks like it was cast. Again, this says nothing about the steel.
So, because of these things, I suspect it is a modern sword produced in China made to look antique. I'd be happy to be proven wrong by those more knowledgable, though.
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Post by larason2 on Jan 20, 2024 21:06:11 GMT
I agree there's lots of points against it, but there are some weird bits. I wonder how the OP assayed the gold? The most common are testing the conductivity or XRF, and both of these can't distinguish gold plated from gold throughout if they are just tested at one point. The colour of the fish varies, so if it's gold I think it's either gold electroplated, or a very low alloy of gold that was poorly cast.
The patina on the habaki seems too nice, and the shape and texture of the nakago seems too good (aside from the crude end cuts and the sharpie). The texture of the hada could be standard damascus, but it's hard to tell with the horrible acid polish.
So I'm wondering if it might be some kind of good quality blade redone badly, but I admit there's a lot that screams Chinese reproduction.
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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 20, 2024 23:59:01 GMT
Thank You tera & larason2...also helpful... The fish are 14k...I tested them again & made a couple better pics...They're dirty where the wrap was not covering them, but they're not plate... I'll try to make better pics of the blade outside tomorrow... Thanks again everyone for checking it out... btw this was found during a house clean out...not purchased as a real deal item... Have a great Saturday Night all
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Post by larason2 on Jan 21, 2024 0:28:21 GMT
That's interesting. From the back the fish were definitely cast, so if it's assaying 14k everywhere, then they were just cast badly! They should have left it heating a bit more, to get the alloy a bit more even, but they were probably worried about oxidation! You can see some parts are more orange, others more yellow. That's unneveness of the other metals that were melted to make the alloy. These were not hand worked after casting, so not high quality pieces. Still, I've never heard of a Chinese replica with gold menuki!
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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 21, 2024 23:08:46 GMT
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Post by larason2 on Jan 21, 2024 23:18:57 GMT
Ah, there's a stamp on the habaki! That usually betides a replica. Still, very interesting that it has gold menuki, even if they aren't the best quality I've seen. Those will be worth a fair penny just for the metal.
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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 21, 2024 23:53:44 GMT
Thanks Larson...Cheers!
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Post by wildv on Jan 22, 2024 14:11:32 GMT
I don't know why we're questioning this? First comment about the sword already confirmed it's 100% a fake. I'm sure we've all been duped before at some point with swords, it's part of the learning process.
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tera
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Post by tera on Jan 22, 2024 15:03:27 GMT
I don't know why we're questioning this? First comment about the sword already confirmed it's 100% a fake. I'm sure we've all been duped before at some point with swords, it's part of the learning process. For me, it's less about questioning it and more about delivery. Not all responses explained that this is not a Nihonto in a polite way, which is how I remember SBG being as a community when I first joined it. It is more kind to list the reasons for concern than just tell someone they have been "duped". Fortunately for the OP, it sounds like this piece was found, not bought, so no money lost. That's a good thing.
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